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Best Critical Thinking Podcasts

With the modern age and the increasing use of a passive mode of communication more and more people are struggling to get their point of view across clearly and concisely. There is no longer the need for messages and conversations to be short and to the point. Instead, many of us choose to use long, rambling phrases in an attempt to clearly explain what we want to say.

However, this is certainly not the best method. Because if you can say something clearly in ten words why would you use twenty? But, communicating in this way is a skill. It can be learned, but it will take time and practice. This is called critical thinking. This article highlights 7 Best Critical Thinking Podcasts.

What is critical thinking?

Critical thinking is a thinking process that takes facts, situations and judgements and mediates them through your mind to provide a rational and clear conclusion. This can be applied to almost any situation, allowing you to apply the process to all aspects of your life. Your relationships, emotions and presentation skills can all be improved with critical thinking.

So, how can you learn this skill? Well, one of the best and easiest ways to pick this up is through podcasts. You can listen and learn on the go, at your own pace. You can also choose from a variety of different approaches to the topic, allowing you to find one that best suits you.

Here we will list the best critical thinking podcasts out there.

Thinking Clearly

The Thinking Clearly podcast covers a broad span of topics but focuses on the issue of false information. In a world of “fake news” how are we supposed to know what to believe and what not to believe? Well, this is where critical thinking can come into play. It helps you to understand and analyse all of the information presented to you before making a decision.

It will provide you with “self-defense” techniques to protect yourself from believing and spreading false information. This way you can keep yourself up to date with what is going on in the world without the fear that it may be a lie.

Data Skeptic

Data skeptic is a podcast that covers critical thinking from a scientific point of view. The need to think rationally and analytically in the scientific field is of the utmost importance. After all, false scientific claims and rules can bring about some very grave and serious consequences.

The podcast is very engaging with various discussions and interviews. The different approaches to critical thinking within the various spheres of the scientific field allow you to understand the importance of critical thinking. It demonstrates how it applies to everything from medicine to artificial intelligence.

Think Fast, Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

This podcast is given by Matt Abrahams, a strategic communication lecturer and graduate from the Stanford business school. So, you can rest assured that you are in good hands. He covers critical thinking from a business point of view, demonstrating how the skills involved in critical thinking are vital to the workplace.

He covers everything that arises in the workplace that can be aided by critical thinking such as writing emails, presenting to colleagues and even talking to the boss. By tackling critical thinking from this angle many people can reap the benefits of being able to think and analyze logically and clearly, applying the techniques to their everyday life.

Inquiring Minds

Another podcast that is great for science fans. But instead of tackling the issues and advantages of critical thinking in a purely scientific field, Inquiring Minds focuses on the point of contact between scientists and wider society. The issue of rapidly developing medical process and social media and “fake news” can be a tricky one to navigate.

Often, false information spreads like wildfire and can actually be horribly detrimental to public health, even if it started out as an obvious joke. This is where critical thinking can come into play and be a useful and powerful tool. It removes the “sheep” mentality, allowing people to think for themselves, judging the data and information that they are presented with fairly and accordingly.

Critical Thinking, Critical Issues

Led by Rupert Watson, who is the head of asset allocation at Mercer Investments , this podcast demonstrates how to use critical thinking within the world of investing. Debates between the host and guests make for an exciting listen, as various viewpoints and arguments are clearly made and discussed.

This podcast covers everything from investment opportunities to market themes and emerging ideas.

The Skeptic’s Guide

The Skeptic’s Guide is another science-based critical thinking podcast, but this time it is a little easier to understand for the everyday man as it covers bad science and conspiracies. The broad appeal of discussing conspiracies means that the podcast is wonderfully engaging and entertaining, all while teaching you how to assess the beliefs for yourself.

This can then be applied to all the other various areas of your life, as you learn to debunk and reconsider beliefs that may be unfounded and just take as a given at face value.

The Overwhelmed Brain

This podcast is a great option if you are looking to use critical thinking for a much more personal aim. The Overwhelmed Brain helps people with low self-esteem, anxiety or depression. It teaches you to take back control of your emotions by critical thinking. This allows you to assess and analyze your emotions in relation to the situation and relationships, building your confidence in the process.

Critical thinking is a fantastic tool that can be applied to all areas of life. No matter your lifestyle, interests or concerns rest assured that there is a critical thinking podcast out there for you.

Even if one of these best critical thinking podcasts does not correlate exactly to you the skill is transferrable so you can still apply the skill that you have learnt to your own life even if you are just listening about people debunking conspiracy theories!

The Overwhelmed Brain – Start Here!

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30 Best Critical Thinking Podcasts

• The Peter Attia Drive
• Cognitive Dissonance
• Critical Q&A
• Don't Be All Like, Uncool: A Very Bravo Podcast
• Chasing Elephants Podcast
• Global Development Institute Podcast
• Critical thinking, critical issues
• Critical Thinking with Andrew Coppens
• The Reality Check
• On Life. W/ Jamie Sinclair.
• Paris Institute for Critical Thinking
• Squaring the Strange
• Inquiring Minds
• Throttle Up Radio with Captain Kevin Smith
• Are You Just Watching? | Christian movie reviews with critical thinking
• Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses-Critical Thinkers » Critical Thought Podcast
• Thinking Clearly
• Jamie Clubb's Podcast
• Desert Voices: Spiritual Conversations
• Critical Thinking Required
• The Ayaan Hirsi Ali Podcast
• The Talk of Shame
• Re: thinking education
• Thinking Commercially
• HIS REVIVAL
• Barely Gettin' By
• Mentally Unscripted

Critical Thinking Podcasters

• Critical Thinking Podcasts Newsletter

Critical Thinking Podcasts

Here are 30 Best Critical Thinking Podcasts worth listening to in 2024

1. The Peter Attia Drive

2. Cognitive Dissonance

3. Critical Q&A

4. Don't Be All Like, Uncool: A Very Bravo Podcast

5. Chasing Elephants Podcast

6. Global Development Institute Podcast

7. Critical thinking, critical issues

8. Critical Thinking with Andrew Coppens

9. The Reality Check

10. On Life. W/ Jamie Sinclair.

11. Paris Institute for Critical Thinking

12. Squaring the Strange

13. Inquiring Minds

14. Throttle Up Radio with Captain Kevin Smith

15. Are You Just Watching? | Christian movie reviews with critical thinking

16. Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses-Critical Thinkers » Critical Thought Podcast

17. Thinking Clearly

18. Jamie Clubb's Podcast

19. Desert Voices: Spiritual Conversations

20. Critical Thinking Required

21. The Ayaan Hirsi Ali Podcast

22. The Talk of Shame

23. Re: thinking education

24. Thinking Commercially

25. HIS REVIVAL

26. Barely Gettin' By

27. Mentally Unscripted

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Top 6 Critical Thinking Podcasts

May 10, 2024

The Best Critical Thinking Podcasts from millions of podcasts available on the Goodpods platform and ranked by listens, ratings, comments, subscriptions and shares.

Preconceived

275 Episodes

Avg Length 44 m

Latest episode 3 days ago

Preconceived, hosted by Zale Mednick, dives deep into the intricacies of human experience, challenging the assumptions that shape our understanding of the world. In each episode, Zale engages with leading experts, thought leaders, and individuals with unique perspectives to uncover the layers beneath societal norms and expectations. From exploring cultural phenomena to dissecting scientific breakthroughs, Preconceived invites its listeners to question their preconceptions about love, life, technology, health, history, and beyond.

With a blend of curiosity and critical thinking, Zale navigates through complex topics, offering his audience a chance to gain new insights and broaden their horizons. Whether it's debunking myths, confronting biases, or simply indulging in the joy of learning something new, Preconceived is more than just a podcast; it's an invitation to view the world through a different lens.

Join Zale Mednick every week on Preconceived for enlightening conversations that promise to inspire, inform, and intrigue. Perfect for the inquisitive mind, this podcast is a must-listen for anyone eager to challenge their understanding of the world and embrace the complexity and beauty of human existence.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Secular Buddhist

337 Episodes

Avg Length 1 m

Latest episode 1 year ago

Inquiring Minds

450 Episodes

Avg Length 43 m

Latest episode 2 days ago

Fularsız Entellik

227 Episodes

Avg Length 31 m

Latest episode 3 hours ago

Halk için, halka rağmen entellik. İlginç konular + eleştirel düşünce + bildiğin Türkçe.

Banned Camp: Reading Banned Books Aloud - Comedy Against Censorship

116 Episodes

Latest episode 1 day ago

Banned Camp is a comedy podcast where we read banned books and try to figure out why they were banned in the first place. Each season, we pick a new banned book, read it chapter by chapter out loud, and then talk about what might have gotten that chapter banned. In our sixth season, one thing that has stood out to us is that it seems like the people who want to ban books have never read them. Although we can find specific things here and there, nothing ever comes to the point where we would call it ban-worthy. Overall, we think banning books is pretty stupid, but we continue our quest nonetheless. Join the fun as we explore why some folks seem to be in such a rush to take us back to the dark ages, one banned book at a time. We’ve covered books like "To Kill a Mockingbird" by Harper Lee, "Fahrenheit 451" by Ray Bradbury, "The Outsiders" by S.E. Hinton, "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" by Mark Twain, and "A Wrinkle in Time" by Madeleine L’Engle. This season, we're diving into “Aristotle and Dante Discover the Secrets of the Universe” by Benjamin Alire Sáenz.

By reading books like these, we can find answers to important questions like: Why are banned books important? What does "banned books" mean? What does "challenged" books mean? How does banning books affect students? What is the most banned book? How do book bans work? Should book banning be allowed? Are book bans constitutional? Which books are banned in the US? What is the most challenged book of all time?

Yardie Skeptics

85 Episodes

Avg Length 118 m

Latest episode 7 years ago

Critical Thinking Podcasts

Critical Thinking Podcasts serve as intellectual playgrounds where listeners engage in stimulating discussions, challenge assumptions, and sharpen their analytical skills. These podcasts provide a platform for exploring diverse perspectives, questioning conventional wisdom, and honing the ability to think critically about complex issues. Whether you're seeking to enhance your problem-solving abilities, expand your understanding of the world, or simply exercise your cognitive muscles, Critical Thinking Podcasts offer a rich tapestry of thought-provoking content to explore and ponder.

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Top Critical Thinking Podcasts

Critical Thinking Podcasts feature a diverse array of hosts, scholars, and experts, each offering unique insights and perspectives on topics ranging from science and philosophy to politics and culture. Leading the charts are podcasts like " The Critical Thinker Podcast ," " You Are Not So Smart ," and " Rationally Speaking ," each providing listeners with a stimulating blend of interviews, discussions, and explorations of critical thinking concepts and principles. These podcasts offer listeners a wealth of knowledge and tools to navigate the complexities of the modern world with clarity and discernment.

What are the Best Critical Thinking Podcasts Right Now in 2024

In 2024, Critical Thinking Podcasts continue to captivate and inspire listeners with their thought-provoking content and engaging discussions. Popular episodes include deep dives into logical fallacies, examinations of cognitive biases, and analyses of current events through a critical lens. Whether you're interested in sharpening your argumentative skills, detecting misinformation, or cultivating a more rational approach to decision-making, there's a Critical Thinking Podcast episode that will challenge your assumptions and expand your intellectual horizons.

Frequently Asked Questions About Critical Thinking Podcasts

What is critical thinking, and why is it important.

Critical thinking is the ability to analyze, evaluate, and synthesize information objectively and logically in order to form well-reasoned judgments and make informed decisions. It involves questioning assumptions, considering alternative perspectives, and applying sound reasoning and evidence to support conclusions. Critical thinking is important because it empowers individuals to navigate the complexities of the modern world, distinguish between fact and fiction, and make sound decisions based on evidence and logic.

How can Critical Thinking Podcasts help improve my critical thinking skills?

Critical Thinking Podcasts offer listeners a wealth of resources and insights to enhance their critical thinking skills. Through engaging discussions, thought-provoking interviews, and explorations of critical thinking concepts and principles, these podcasts provide listeners with valuable tools and techniques to analyze arguments, detect logical fallacies, and evaluate evidence. By exposing listeners to diverse perspectives and challenging assumptions, Critical Thinking Podcasts encourage the development of robust analytical skills and a more nuanced understanding of complex issues.

Can anyone benefit from listening to Critical Thinking Podcasts?

Yes, absolutely! Critical Thinking Podcasts are designed to appeal to a wide range of listeners, regardless of their background, expertise, or level of familiarity with critical thinking concepts. Whether you're a student seeking to improve your academic performance, a professional looking to enhance your problem-solving abilities, or simply a curious individual interested in exploring new ideas, there's a Critical Thinking Podcast episode that will inspire and challenge you to think more critically about the world around you.

How can I apply critical thinking skills in my everyday life?

Critical thinking skills can be applied in various aspects of everyday life, from analyzing news articles and social media posts to evaluating arguments and making decisions in personal and professional contexts. By practicing critical thinking techniques such as asking probing questions, considering alternative viewpoints, and weighing evidence, individuals can become more discerning consumers of information and more effective communicators and decision-makers in their personal and professional lives.

Are there any exercises or activities I can do to improve my critical thinking skills?

Yes, there are many exercises and activities that can help improve critical thinking skills, including reading challenging texts, engaging in debates and discussions, solving puzzles and brainteasers, and practicing mindfulness and self-reflection. Additionally, listening to Critical Thinking Podcasts and engaging with the content through reflection and analysis can also be an effective way to sharpen critical thinking skills and deepen your understanding of complex issues.

Check out these Critical Thinking Podcasts

The mindful man project.

28 Episodes

Avg Length 57 m

Latest episode 19 days ago

The Mindful Man Project tackles every aspect of life that can help a man (and woman) excel in areas of life. Gain knowledge and grow skill sets from leaders in their field. The Mindful Man Project is arming you the listener with tools and tips to help change patterns and aids to level up your life. Join Tyson Venables and his guests as they embark on topics to further create life on your terms.

Thinking 2 Think

45 Episodes

Avg Length 23 m

Latest episode 5 days ago

How to support what we are doing: https://maaponte.substack.com/ This is Thinking 2 Think the Critical Thinking podcast where we analyze topics such as Civics, History, Culture, Philosophy, Politics, business, and current events through a critical thinkers lens. I am your host, the social studies educator Michael Antonio Aponte also known as Mr. A. About the host: A successful author, motivational speaker, and educator, Michael Antonio Aponte (M.A. Aponte) empowers individuals via critical thinking. He has had a major impact in several industries due to his wide background and experience. He started his work as a Merrill Lynch wealth manager, learning about finance and its effects on us. After his personal and professional success, he became a motivational speaker, encouraging and mentoring individuals from various backgrounds. Aponte works to teach others how to think critically and thoughtfully about life's issues. M.A. Aponte's informative essays on current events, finance, history, and philosophy draw on his expertise and experience. His writings show his intellectual curiosity and passion to exploring world-changing concepts. He writes and teaches to empower people by sharing his knowledge, experiences, and viewpoints. His comments will motivate you to examine, analyze, and accept reasoning, obtaining new insights that can improve the future. Please, subscribe, share, listen, and let's build a critical thinking society together.

Q&A on Breakthrough Leadership

Avg Length 22 m

Latest episode 2 years ago

The Naked Monk

Latest episode 10 years ago

The MoveMind Podcast

35 Episodes

Avg Length 67 m

226 Episodes

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81 Episodes

Avg Length 33 m

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Curated Questions

Avg Length 59 m

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Logical Fallacies

68 Episodes

7 Skills For the Future

117 Episodes

Avg Length 21 m

Hosted by international author and soft skills expert Emma Sue Prince, this podcast is all about bringing 7 key skills into your everyday so that you are strong and well equipped right now and for the future. These skills are Adaptability, Critical Thinking, Empathy, Integrity, Being Proactive, Optimism and Resilience.

Our world is changing - so fast, so furiously, so ferociously - that to stand out, to be happy and to feel calm, you need to tap into your own resources and competences. Doing this puts you firmly back into the driving seat of your own life, enabling you to be happier, find and do work you love and have a true sense of purpose.

In this podcast Emma Sue gives you great tips and ideas on how you can easily strengthen these skills - skills that we all have - and as a result, live your best life. She also talks to key influences and thought leaders for their take on these skills.

Awake at the Wheel

61 Episodes

Latest episode 9 days ago

Join Clinical Psychologist, Dr. Oren Amitay and Registered Psychotherapist, Malini Ondrovcik each week as they explore, challenge and dissect social phenomena across the ideological spectrum. Malini and Oren each bring a depth of clinical expertise, a robust knowledge of the relevant literature and trends in psychology, diverse lived experiences, and out-of-the-box thinking to each discussion, with the goal of leaving listeners ready to explore their own take on the matter at hand. Malini is a Registered Psychotherapist and operates a multidisciplinary clinic devoted to advocating for and empowering those who access the clinic’s services. She specializes in the provision of culturally competent treatment in areas of trauma, depression, anxiety, chronic pain, ADHD, as well as other mental health and educational issues. Malini has extensive experience in the assessment and treatment of First Responders, and is qualified as an expert witness to provide testimony in court pertaining to trauma within the context of personal injury. Dr. Amitay is a Clinical Psychologist and a university lecturer who has worked in the field of mental health for almost 30 years. His areas of expertise include assessment, evaluation, and intervention with adults, couples, and families with a focus on mood, anxiety, personality and psychiatric disorders, as well as relationship conflict, sexuality, family difficulties, and myriad social, occupational and educational issues. Dr. Amitay has additional competencies in the areas of teaching and research, and has been qualified as an expert witness over 30 times regarding the above-noted areas. Dr. Amitay has extensive experience in the area of Psychological, Personality, Intelligence and Parenting Capacity/Custody Assessment, and has several scholarly publications.

Thinking to Believe

112 Episodes

Avg Length 38 m

Latest episode 6 days ago

Atwood on AP®: Essential Skills for Improving AP English

This is a podcast that focuses on interviewing successful AP® teachers, who have a passion and vision to improve their students’ writing, reading, and analytical thinking skills. If this is done effectively, improved scores will surely follow.

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Dit is de podcast van Stichting Skepsis, een podcast voor iedereen die het skeptische gedachtegoed een warm hart toedraagt. Waarin we claims debunken maar ook de skepticus helpen in het dagelijks leven. Onder leiding van Richard Engelfriet, een vaste bijdrage van Pepijn van Erp en wisselende gasten.

Reacties, suggesties en tips zijn welkom op [email protected]

Een productie van Stichting Skepsis .

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Improve Your Critical Thinking at Work

Helen Lee Bouygues, founder of the Reboot Foundation, believes that a lack of critical thinking is responsible for many business failures. She says organizational leaders often...

• Apple Podcasts

Helen Lee Bouygues, founder of the Reboot Foundation, believes that a lack of critical thinking is responsible for many business failures. She says organizational leaders often rely too heavily on expertise and then jump to conclusions. Instead, leaders should deliberately approach each problem and devote time thinking through possible solutions. The good news, she says, is that critical thinking skills can developed and practiced over time. Bouygues is the author of the HBR.org article “ 3 Simple Habits to Improve Your Critical Thinking .”

Download this podcast

CURT NICKISCH: Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I’m Curt Nickisch.

You know the story. Maybe it’s even a nightmare of yours. One day, the company is flying high. No reason to change anything. Customers and contracts will always be there.

And then one day – the money stops flowing in, and the business is suddenly in real trouble.

Our guest today knows this all too well. She has been an interim CEO, CFO, or COO at more than one dozen companies. Sometimes they needed her because they were mismanaged. Some failed to stay in front of changing technologies. In a few cases, members of the senior team were simply negligent. But in her experience, all these organizational problems shared one root cause: A lack of critical thinking.

Our guest is Helen Lee Bouygues. She’s the founder of the Reboot Foundation. Based in Paris, the nonprofit helps parents, teachers and employers think more critically about their problems. She’s also the author of the HBR.org article “ 3 Simple Habits to Improve Your Critical Thinking .” Helen, thanks for being here.

HELEN LEE BOUYGUES: Thank you for having me Curt.

CURT NICKISCH: Helen, you worked in transitional periods for a bunch of big companies. And, you say that many people’s business problems really come down to simple errors in critical thinking. That just sounds a little surprising to me and I wanted to hear why you say that.

HELEN LEE BOUYGUES: Yeah, I think at first glance people believe that critical thinking is something that we do every day and it comes very natural. But in reality, critical thinking is not only extremely important for success in life, but it’s also something that needs to be learned and practiced.

Critical thinking skills are very much predictive of making positive financial decisions, even more so than raw intelligence, but people kind of forget what that actually means in terms of tools and practices that they need to exercise in order to make the right decisions, or at least the better decisions.

Based on my 20 years of different turnaround and transformation experience, I have noticed that very often when things go sideways or create problems and companies find themselves in a situation of a need for turnaround, it’s typically been because I would argue that the leadership perhaps lacked some elements of critical thinking.

CURT NICKISCH: Why do you think we lack critical thinking skills, or why do you think we think we’re better at it than we actually are?

HELEN LEE BOUYGUES: That’s a great question Curt and actually we did a survey at the Reboot Foundation about a year ago, where we asked people questions of everything from ranging from how often do they practice critical thinking to how important they think critical thinking is, and how often they teach their children critical thinking?

I think one of the reasons why it’s more difficult in today’s day and age is that we live in a world of incessant distraction and technology is often to blame as well. We live in a period when we have a question, we want that instant gratification getting the information, just typing the question on Google, having the answer quickly and so, we don’t actually have as much time to stop and think.

And part of the necessity of critical thinking is having that ability to take a step back and actually think about your own thinking. And yet, it’s actually becoming more and more critical because as businesses evolve and there’s more urgency to make decisions, that’s exactly when we need to do more critical thinking than perhaps we used to, because of evolving technology and rapidly changing competitive environments in business.

CURT NICKISCH: You say that getting better at critical thinking is something we can learn and cultivate?

HELEN LEE BOUYGUES: Yes. The opposite of critical thinking could be selective thinking. And naturally selective thinking is something that you can actually do relatively quickly because it’s just a reinforcement of your own opinion. People in business can get better at critical thinking if they just do three things. One, question assumptions. Two, reason through logic. And three, diversify thought.

CURT NICKISCH: How do you actually do that?

HELEN LEE BOUYGUES: So, the taking a break, and that doesn’t mean doing meditation or yoga, but actually taking the time. It could be going for a run, or a walk around the block. That alone creates that opportunity for an individual to take the time to stop and think. So, that’s one dimension I think that people need to put in their normal practice.

The second element that you wouldn’t necessarily think about in terms of an attribute necessary for critical thinking is management of emotions. So, the number of times that you can imagine, especially in a boardroom for a company that’s going through a difficulty, heated discussions, insults across the room. In that type of environment, it’s very difficult to engage in rational thinking.

As much emotions are important, when it comes to true important decisions, we need to put aside the feelings and emotions that go awry in a meeting setting. In addition to that, I think the other element of what we need to make sure that we conduct is making sure that we have other points of views.

CURT NICKISCH: When you talk about looking at things from opposing viewpoints, sometimes that’s helpful when you have somebody who plays that role, or when you have a diverse team that you can share ideas with and explore. I don’t know that all of us are as good of just thinking from other perspectives when we’re kind of just in our own thoughts.

HELEN LEE BOUYGUES: Yeah, but it’s again, that’s why I think I started off this conversation Curt, in saying that critical thinking is something that you actually need to practice and you need to learn. Because indeed, it’s natural and it’s very human to stay in your own personal bubble because it’s comfortable.

But you can actually do this from a small scale to a larger scale, and what I mean by that specifically is if you’re starting small, if you work in for example, in accounting. Go have lunch with people in marketing in your organization.

I have a good friend, Mathilde Thomas, she’s actually the founder of Caudalie which is a very successful line of skincare products made from grapes. Mathilde grew up spending her time in her family vineyards, so her family originally was in the wine business. And the idea of the skincare product came about because one day a friend of the family, this physician, came to visit the vineyard and he was looking at the vat of grape skins that were about to be discarded and he said, well that’s a pot of treasure, so why are you just discarding that away? And that’s effectively how the business of Caudalie actually began.

So, that’s a positive story where people who are not necessarily in the same field can get together and actually come up with innovation or here it wasn’t even intended to be an innovation. It just was an idea that sprung from two people from different walks of life getting together and coming up with the business idea. So, that’s a positive example in terms of diversity.

CURT NICKISCH: Where have you seen this failure in some of the companies that you worked with? Where have you seen the inability to diversify thought and opinions and host costly that can be?

HELEN LEE BOUYGUES: I think in terms of negative, I’ve seen a specific example for a pharmaceutical company where the founder brought in a CFO who actually had very little experience in accounting. He had experience in mergers and acquisitions, in elements of financing, but not pure accounting.

But his true qualification of becoming the CFO was the fact that he was a very, very good friend of the CEO’s and you see that example over and over again, including in boards. The number of times you see the board of a company being surrounded, the CEO being surrounded by his or her friends, which is why often I think from time to time, you have companies, publicly listed companies where sometimes the board may not see certain indications.

Be it the case of a Steinhoff or an Enron, which is an extreme case of fraud, but even in terms of general decisions, strategic decisions, that if you have a board composed of just a group of friends of the CEO’s, you don’t have diversity of thought in that type of environment.

CURT NICKISCH: So, we’ve talked some about questioning assumptions and the power of diversifying thought. But another point you make is that people need to get better about reasoning through logic. And I think this is going to surprise people too because logical is just such a household word. We think that we think logically, so why is logic a deficit and kind of a prerequisite for the critical thinking you think we need to see more of in management?

HELEN LEE BOUYGUES: So, one of the stories that I like to bring up is a specific company that I encountered a couple of years ago. It’s one of the world’s largest producers of aluminum tubes and they have clients ranging from L’Oréal to Proctor and Gamble, all over the world.

And the CEO of this company was blindsided by his own fervor and probably unreasonable optimism about the outlook for the revenue profile of this company. In reality, the company was in relatively dire financial straits, but again he was blinded with his hope that his clients would never leave because the switching costs of his clients would be too high, or that at least was his hypothesis.

And for some business leaders I think some optimism is obviously a good thing. There wouldn’t be Ubers or EBays if we didn’t have entrepreneurs who have that charisma and exuberance. But what I often find in companies is CEOss with something I call simply WTF. Now Curt, that’s not what you think that we commonly use in text messages, but it’s for me it’s “wishful thinking forever’.

And I think that blinded optimism can often mask the capability and the ability to reason through logic and actually re-question your approach and saying, “well, can my customers decide to change vendors? Is the competitive environment actually shifting? Are there low-cost companies that could actually take over my business even if that hurdle rate is high?”

So, it’s again coming back to being able to ask the right questions and looking at your business and saying, “is there a different way of doing things?” And that’s when you avoid the pitfalls of actually reasoning through logic.

And it comes back to the argument of having different views from your original views and your original sentiments. And obviously in order to do that, we need to really pay close attention to our own chain of logic.

CURT NICKISCH: Which I like by the way, wishful thinking forever. I’m going to read text messages that way now. Probably make them a little more optimistic. Yeah.

A lot of companies pay consultants to do this kind of critical thinking for them and they come in with tools and concept mapping, and all of the sorts of things that maybe they’re a little more deliberate about and also, removed from the emotion of working in the culture of a company. Do you see consultants as essentially paid critical thinkers?

HELEN LEE BOUYGUES: I think many consultants are good at critical thinking. I don’t believe that the industry of management consulting is a sector that is there to enforce critical thinking for companies. And let me explain why I believe that. A lot of, in a lot of situations CEOs seek validation and look for evidence that supports their preconceived notions. And consultants are often trained to agree with their client’s theories.

So, I would almost counter argue and say, for CEOs to effectively use consultants, they almost need to be very precise and be very upfront in their scope of work with the consultants, demand and ask that the consulting firm give a different point of view, or an opposing point of view than the original thesis of a leader.

Now that is sometimes hard to do. It goes back to the original part of our discussion. It’s less comfortable for leaders and in a lot of situations why CEO’s are hiring consultants are to justify and explain with more detail to their boards of why they’re doing certain strategic activities. So, that’s where we have to be careful about relying on consultants as quote, “a mechanism to do better critical thinking in business”.

CURT NICKISCH: Have you actually seen companies turn around when they change the way they approach problems and instituted critical thinking across the organization in a more deliberate way?

HELEN LEE BOUYGUES: Yes. I worked with a telecom company in Africa, not so long ago. And they had probably the lowest customer satisfaction rate across the board, amongst the different countries in Africa. And the CEO was somebody who was a very open minded, wanted to challenge – now you could argue Curt, they were on the low, they couldn’t get lower in terms of customer satisfaction, so they only had room to go up.

But if you put that aside, what he instituted was to have a sub group of his team to go visit another South African country that had very high customer satisfaction rates. So, it was, I would call creating an environment for its employees to have a bit of a diversity of thought, but also to actually be exposed to give the capacity for its employees to question the assumptions about what they were doing wrong.

So, very good CEOs not only are capable of trying to conduct metacognition for him or herself, meaning questioning his or her own way of thinking, but he’ll challenge his team and help them to challenge their own way of thinking by showing different examples of for example, success stories in the same type of work where in a case of this telecom company in Africa, where they could see and visit customer services centers in other African countries where they had high customer satisfaction rate.

So, it’s giving the exposure to its team to seek out diversity of thought, but also promoting that, and encouraging that its employees think differently than being focused on their own silos of work and being, trying to be efficient in their own capacity, in their existing dimension.

CURT NICKISCH: Yeah. So, if that was a good critical thinker, as a CEO, what do most leaders do in that situation? What does the “uncritical thinker” do?

HELEN LEE BOUYGUES: The uncritical thinker would be to try to gain more efficiency out of its existing employees and continue to do more of the same thing. But probably putting in more KPI’s. That’s a popular thing that leaders do. And try to put more pressure in the system so that companies are more productive. Rather than thinking out of the box and trying to say, should we be doing something differently than the way we’re doing it today?

CURT NICKISCH: And for individuals? Because whether or not you have a CEO who’s good at this, you can still affect your own team and you can still affect your own work with your own critical thinking. What should they do to get better at critical thinking?

HELEN LEE BOUYGUES: Be curious. Ask the questions. “ What if” questions are great. It’s important to constantly challenge yourself saying, what if I did something differently than the way I’m doing it now? What if I approached my client differently than the way I’m doing it now? What if I changed the processes? Would there be improvement? That’s the type of individual who can improve by actually questioning the assumptions of what he or she is doing on a daily basis.

And then the second element again, is trying to be very factual and be rigid about gathering facts and proof and accumulating data in order to truly justify why you’re doing what you’re doing. It’s going back to paying close attention to the chain of your own logic.

And then the third is expanding your horizon by interacting with people that are not in your existing silo. So, I go back to the example, very simple example, go have lunch, go have a drink with somebody that’s not in your same department, but go reach out to somebody who’s in a totally different building, or even different division within your group.

CURT NICKISCH: Helen, thanks for coming on the show and talking about thinking through how to be a better critical thinker.

HELEN LEE BOUYGUES: Thank you so much. It was a real pleasure to be on your show.

CURT NICKISCH: That’s Helen Lee Bouygues. She’s the founder of the Paris-based Reboot Foundation and the author of the HBR.org article “ 3 Simple Habits to Improve Your Critical Thinking .”

This episode was produced by Mary Dooe. We get technical help from Rob Eckhardt. Adam Buchholz is our audio product manager.

Thanks for listening to the HBR IdeaCast . I’m Curt Nickisch.

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Teaching in Higher Ed

Rethinking Critical Thinking

With mays imad.

| April 21, 2022 | Array Twitter Facebook LinkedIn Email

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Mays Imad shares how she (and others) is rethinking cricital thinking on episode 410 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast.

Quotes from the episode

It was so important for me to make my own decisions and come to my own conclusions. -Mays Imad

Thinking has an affective component. -Mays Imad

Our rational thinking can be hijacked when we are under the influence of fear. -Mays Imad

• What would Socrates think? by Mays Imad 

Intellectual Empathy: Critical Thinking for Social Justice by Maureen Linker

• Five Essential Ways of Knowing, by Ben Harley and Mays Imad for Inside Higher Ed
• Rumi quote: “You are not a drop in the ocean. You are the entire ocean in a drop.”
• Susannah McGowan
• Sam Wineburg

ARE YOU ENJOYING THE SHOW?

On this episode.

Mays Imad is a neuroscientist, a science educator, an educational developer, and a mental health advocate. She is a Gardner Institute Fellow and an AAC&U Senior Fellow. Dr. Imad’s current research focuses on stress, self-awareness and regulation, advocacy, and classroom community, and how these relate to cognition, metacognition, and, ultimately, student learning and success. She is also interested in better understanding the various dimensions of critical thinking, including the role of feelings in short circuiting or enhancing critical thinking. Through her teaching and research, she seeks to provide her students with transformative opportunities that are grounded in the aesthetics of learning, truth-seeking, justice, and self-realization.

• Bonni Stachowiak

Bonni Stachowiak is the producer and host of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, which has been airing weekly since June of 2014. Bonni is the Dean of Teaching and Learning at Vanguard University of Southern California. She’s also a full Professor of Business and Management. She’s been teaching in-person, blended, and online courses throughout her entire career in higher education. Bonni and her husband, Dave, are parents to two curious kids, who regularly shape their perspectives on teaching and learning.

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[00:00:00] Bonni Stachowiak: Today on episode number 410 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, Mays Imad is back, and she is Rethinking Critical Thinking.

[00:00:12] Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

[00:00:21] Bonni: Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed . I’m Bonni Stachowiak and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches, so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students.

Mays Imad received her undergraduate training from the University of Michigan Dearborn, where she studied philosophy. She received her doctoral degree in cellular and clinical neurobiology from Wayne State University School of Medicine in Detroit, Michigan. She then completed a National Institute of Health-Funded Postdoctoral Fellowship at the University of Arizona in the Department of Neuroscience. She joined the Department of Life and Physical Sciences at Pima Community College in Tucson, Arizona, as an adjunct faculty member in 2009, and later as a full-time faculty member in 2013.

During her tenure at Pima, she taught physiology, pathophysiology, genetics, biotechnology, and biomedical ethics. She also founded Pima’s Teaching and Learning Center. Imad is currently teaching in the biology department at Connecticut College. Mays is a Gartner Institute Fellow and an AAC&U Senior Fellow within the Office of Undergraduate STEM Education.

Dr. Imad’s research focuses on stress, self-awareness, advocacy, and classroom community, and how these impact student learning and success. Through her teaching and research, she seeks to provide her students with transformative opportunities that are grounded in the aesthetics of learning, truth-seeking, justice, and self-realization. Mays, welcome back to Teaching in Higher Ed .

[00:02:36] Mays Imad: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:38] Bonni: We’re going all the way back together today. We’re going to go back to your childhood. Could you describe yourself as a child to us? What were you like?

[00:02:48] Mays: I was very introspective. In fact, recently, I was reading some teacher’s comments from grade school from first grade and it describes me just really so specifically that I needed time to sit alone and think and then ask questions and go back and sit alone and think. I don’t think I was an introvert, but I definitely was very much theories and abstract and just very introspective.

My paternal grandfather was an intellectual, so I would ask him big questions. I learned what excited him. I’d ask him about history, and I think he really instilled in me this love of asking questions and learning through questions and finding home in those questions if you will.

[00:03:52] Bonni: There was something that you worried about a lot as a child as part of this thinking process. What did you worry a lot about?

[00:03:59] Mays: I was terrified of being manipulated. I think in part because I knew I experienced whether it was on the playground or at the dinner table, myself, switching my mind or getting persuaded when I didn’t want to or manipulated. I knew how easy that can happen and I was terrified of it happening to me and losing my autonomy. It was so important for me to make my own decision to arrive at my own conclusion. While I couldn’t articulate why it had something to do with– well, I now know, with just living life to the fullest.

[00:04:54] Bonni: As we fast forward a little bit in your life, could you take us to a very important turning point in your life, and that was the year of 1993?

[00:05:04] Mays: Yes. That’s the year that my mother and sisters, we emigrated. We escaped Iraq. We had to leave, my sisters were ill. This was after the 1991 Desert Storm. Iraq went from being developed country to an increasingly undeveloped country. There was an embargo and life was just very difficult for your average citizen. It was difficult. It was difficult to leave your school, to leave your friends and family, and all of the uncertainty.

As a teenager, it was really, I remember pain. While we were crossing the borders between Iraq and Jordan, there were issues. We were caught that we were trying to leave the country and my mom was taken away. I remember she turned to me and she said, “Take care of your sisters.” I had two sisters with me in the taxi, the stranger, taxi driver. I do remember both being angry that I can’t believe I’m doing this and I had no say and at the same time, just terrified.

Somehow I kept thinking, I just need to finish my school. It became like a soothing lullaby, I just need to finish my school. Somehow, if I finished my school and got my education, I knew that I would be okay. Whatever happened, whether my mom came back or not, I would be able to take care of myself and my sisters. My mom came back, we were able to leave, and we made it to Jordan. Then we made it to the States. I think back about that story and what led to that realization that if I got my education, that it was so intimately linked to being okay.

[00:07:20] Bonni: That to me seems quite an unusual source of comfort. Do you also find it unusual source of comfort or is that my own cultural background? Perhaps speaking here, do you see that as something that would be a common way, when someone faced with that kind of a situation, to see it as such a comfort?

[00:07:40] Mays: Yes. That’s a great question. I’m not sure. I know for me, it’s always been a source of comfort. I wonder if it’s because maybe the tradition that I grew up in, or my grandma reciting poetry and teachings of sages about, for example, Rumi says, “You’re not a drop in the ocean. You’re the entire ocean in a drop.” It’s this, sometimes as a child, or even as an adult, I got glimpses of what that means and I find it enormously comforting. It makes the world less lonely, in an existential sense, if you will.

When I look back, and the hardship that I’ve been through as an immigrant, just as a human, I always found comfort in education, and even healing and understanding, and still to this day. Then, I think, when I speak with students and they share similar experiences that reaffirms my experience, I think, “Well, maybe it’s maybe it is a common thing that we have.”

[00:09:05] Bonni: Something I know that you find to be missing or lacking in education today is critical thinking. I know from what little bit I know about critical thinking, when we say that phrase or that word, we mean a lot of different things by it. Before we really talk about what that means, would you share when you remember noticing that it wasn’t there? What kinds of circumstances would you find yourself in where you would think, “Well, they know this, but they don’t possess critical thinking?” Maybe that’s even in you. Did you notice it first in you or did you notice it first in learners?

[00:09:47] Mays: I did notice it in me I think towards the end of my graduate or even postdoctoral years. My undergraduate training was in philosophy. It was all critical thinking, it was all just Socratic questioning and logic and just critical thinking. Then I went and I got my PhD in clinical neuroscience, and then I did my postdoc and it was this ultra-focused very disciplined, strict approach to understanding the world. I understand why that is, and yet I was noticing that I was becoming, I don’t know, less cerebral, less critical, less creative towards the end of my postdoc. That’s in part because I was so focused on that one gene that I was studying.

Fast forward several years later, I’m in the classroom and I was teaching a variety of classes, science classes, and one class in particular that I began to ask myself more and more questions about critical thinking was biomedical ethics. Biomedical ethics is a class that both science and non-science major students took it. It requires that we do argumentations and learning about deductive and inductive reasoning and learning about fallacies. There’s a lot of debate if you will. We write arguments, we refute arguments, and so on.

That’s when I began to notice in students’ writings, including students who had had me in previous courses and did really well in anatomy and physiology and genetics, they were really struggling with the argument part or the constructing or deconstructing arguments, the premise, the conclusion, assumptions, and so on. Then I started just collecting data to see if it’s just an anecdote, if it’s my perhaps some bias or if it’s actually there. What the data showed, this is from several courses, is that indeed students were struggling with the part of the course that dealt with logic and critical thinking, and fallacies.

In fact, students would say, this was the toughest part of the course. Students would say, “How come this is the first time we’re learning it?” I thought, is it? Then I look at the science curricula or I look at high school curriculum and it is, we don’t teach a course on logic. We don’t teach a course, that’s exclusively on critical thinking. Then I did another study where I asked STEM students, “Do you want to learn this?” Overwhelmingly, over 90% said, yes. Right now, we’re not learning it in a systematic, intentional way. Some went on and said, “This is hurting us in the real world.” They linked it to misinformation and linked it to just– some would even link it to our democracy and how it’s all interconnected.

[00:13:29] Bonni: When you asked them, “Do you want to learn this?” How did you ask this? Was this something that they had already learned and so you asked them, is this something you’d want to learn more about, or did they already have a conception of whatever came to mind when they thought about argumentation and logical fallacies, et cetera?

[00:13:50] Mays: I did two things. With students that were taking my courses, at the end of the course, there is a course evaluation. I added a question about, “Do you think is merit to teaching critical thinking and logic in STEM courses and if so, why?” Then separately, I did a survey where I asked STEM students at the college, at Pima Community College, if they think it is important to include critical thinking and logic in introductory STEM courses. In both cases, students came back and said, “Yes, please, we want this. Help.”

[00:14:35] Bonni: What can you tell us about what is missing from even those of us that may introduce some of these things in our classes, as far as the inner landscape of critical thinking? What can you tell us about that?

[00:14:49] Mays: Thank you for asking. When I presented some of this work at The Society for the Advancement of Biology Education Research, SABER, there was a lot of interest. One of the recurrent questions that I got from my colleagues is, “How do we do this?” What I did is I and some colleagues, Suzannah McGowan, for example, we wrote an NSF grant, it’s an incubator grant, and we got the grant. We gathered together a group of science educators. What we wanted to do is we wanted to create–

First of all, decide on definitions. What is critical thinking? How do we teach it? What is logical thinking reasoning, and how do we teach it? We wanted to also come up with examples, sample assignments, and to really spend time on all right, we have those sample assignments, we have definitions, how do we assess it? We did about a year of work with that incubator grant. We created a website. We put everything on that website.

Now, in the process of doing research with my students and also doing the work with that incubator grant, there were two things that emerged. Number one, critical thinking is not enough. If I was seeing that students learned the logical fallacies and learned the structure of an argument and how to assess it and analyze it, and yet they were getting stuck when they encountered something that was ambiguous that dealt with uncertainty, or definitely they were getting stuck when they were dealing with a topic that had some ideological or political implication.

That came out from the research. In addition, we did some consulting with Sam Wineburg, who’s done a lot on misinformation. Sam and others are of the opinion that it’s not just critical thinking that we need to be able to tell if something is real or fake, and then we also did some work with Maureen Linker who taught logic and critical thinking and philosophy at the University of Michigan Dearborn, who’s written a book on intellectual empathy for social justice.

She and others, and the science of learning tell us that thinking has an effective component. That feelings are an important part of the problem-solving or thinking process. The whole inner landscape then is a call for us to broaden what we think and what we conceive of critical thinking. The American Philosophical Association now really confines the definition of critical thinking to logic and these cognitive and rational processes, but we know that those processes don’t happen without the affective, the emotional component.

Then what does it mean to have a framework that engages with the feelings also? The reason it’s important is oftentimes I tell my students and my colleagues and myself is that our rational thinking can be hijacked when we are under the influence of fear but if I learn to be able to recognize those strong emotions, the feelings, and work with them, then rather than getting hijacked and impacting sometimes in a negative way, my thinking process, they can even inform it. The inner landscape becomes a quest for understanding the relationship between critical thinking and the critical feeling, but also the critical engagement.

[00:19:29] Bonni: Something that really helped me understand this, as I read your work, was an assignment that you gave to students about imagining a world devoid of critical thinking. Could you talk about that assignment and what they came up with? This was just fascinating for me.

[00:19:46] Mays: As it was for me. I learned from students that if I teach them the fallacies, they’d become really good at it. They become really good at just constructing arguments, deconstruct, they’re really good but what I felt was missing is the personal connection to why this is important. This is not just a game and an exercise. I wanted to see if they were making the connections to our survivability, just our democracy, our humanity. That’s what I talk about in the paper. It’s really important to interrogate, with our students, the utility of critical thinking.

I created this assignment where I say, “Describe, imagine a society that lacks critical thinking. What might that society look like and why?” Then there’s another part, is a reflection on their reflection. It was really incredible what came back and what came back actually led me to believe that no, the students actually are really engaged in critical thinking. In fact, we all are in a day-to-day and what we need is perhaps more emphasis on it and more discussion about it.

What came back is this without me preparing them, without me even giving them any hint, but this link to our ability to live together, our ability to thrive, some students talked about empathy. Some students talked about justice, some students linked it to the demise of society and democracy, and so on. They were able to see, at least, the students that I worked with, the connection between this class, this assignment, these fallacies that we were learning, and the future and their role in that future.

[00:22:03] Bonni: Before we get to the recommendation segment of the podcast, I’d love to have you share a little bit about what you are seeing as the difference between really teaching something, or perhaps I should phrase it a different way, really getting to experience people, learning something versus introducing concepts or ideas, or asking people to memorize things. What are some distinctions that you’re noticing between those two things?

[00:22:32] Mays: That’s a great question, not just with critical thinking, with any topic and what I’m seeing with students, comments, and their reflections is students want to really fit and marinate with those topics and concepts. They don’t want to be presented, to be given a list, memorize it and go on. They’ve already made the connections that this is important in the real world if you will.

In fact, I was just analyzing some of the qualitative data from one of the studies I did on critical thinking and what comes back, again and again, is students want this to be infused in all of their courses across curriculum, and to be able to practice more and more. One of the students, whom I was reading their input, said that it actually helps reduce their imposter syndrome. The more they practice the skills, the more it becomes second nature, the more they freeze when they are confronted with new situations.

I remember in my classes, the classes that left an impact on me that remember to this day, years later, those are the ones where there was a lot of reinforcement and a lot of integration and making connections, not just with each other, but the materials. I mentioned Dr. Maureen Linker. I remember she was my professor and she was remarkable. Even the stories that she told about her family, about her upbringing. She used those stories to help us practice some of those critical thinking or logic, symbolic logic tools we were using in the classroom. She understood though remarkably so, the affective component of learning.

[00:24:47] Bonni: Something that I’ve been thinking about with regard to this is, and I do think we have to be cautious about this, but I have a colleague who’s responsible for a class that our first-year students take and she’s finding that she gets better information when she asks them their second year about that class and the value of it than if she asks them at the end of that first semester in college. Again, I think we have to be careful not to just say, “Well, it doesn’t matter.” I think that initial feedback, I still believe is important yet. Also thinking about it a little bit longer.

To that end, I’m teaching a class right now where I use some modules built by Mike Cofield about information literacy. I had a young man just tell me yesterday, say, “I just don’t think I’m going to use this.” It didn’t make me that afraid because I have noticed that he has a little bit of a pattern of his initial response to things is to push it back a little bit. I’m seeing but I’m thinking, “I want to talk to you in four weeks” because we’ve just left that and now I have some assignments. The acronym that Mike Cofield uses is SIFT. I called the assignments SIFT in the wild and they’re going to be able to go read about any of the topics that they find particularly of interest that relate to the course and then apply it.

I think that it’s possible that there’s hope for this young man that I’m not going to give up, but because we don’t do that in a lot of our classes, they’re so used to, “Well, I’m just evaluating this because now this module over we’re going on to something else,” and they’re used to this past fail grade for whether or not any of this is going to be beneficial to them.

Then I know this is another thing that you have written about and researched about too because, to me, it’s the context in which these skills are going to be used. To me, unless students are able to have both the agency to explore context that may be more relevant or important to them in their own lives. Anyway, this is something that you were getting me thinking about.

[00:27:11] Mays: I’m so glad you mentioned that. It reminds me of– I always would say, “Why should you worry about this? Why should you invest energy in this? What does this have to do with your Sunday brunch with your family?” I always do that in my classes. I remember a student who finished bioethics with me and she went through the module and critical thinking and logical reasoning and so on.

She come to visit me maybe a year later or so. She said, “I love critical thinking.” I said, “Oh yes, say more.” She said, “Every time I would argue with my husband, I end up crying and I get too emotional.” The other day, they had an argument. That’s what she said. “Then in the middle of the argument, I said, “Well, that’s a fallacy.” She said, “Dr. Imad,” and it shifted the whole argument. “I wasn’t crying. I was like, “Oh, I caught a fallacy.” To hear this student just feel so empowered by her own brilliance and reason and critical thinking was really remarkable. It’s an everyday process. It shows up, it can empower us. It can help us. It can illuminate our path forward.

[00:28:38] Bonni: The Sunday Brunch. [laughs] Well, this is the time in the show where we each get to share our recommendations. Today, I’d like to share about a movie that one of our kids has been looking forward to pretty much since she first heard about it, it is the new Pixar movie. It is called Turning Red , and it is an absolute delight. It’s funny, it’s charming.

It’s about a 13-year-old girl who struggles with some changes that are happening, including that she keeps turning into a red Panda. I’m not giving much away because you definitely see that in the previews. It’s just a really fun, delightful movie and something I would seriously suggest for the whole family. It’s great to bring out all kinds of conversations and to help us think about how we navigate our emotions. That’s my recommendation for today. Mays, I’m going to pass it over to you for yours.

[00:29:40] Mays: Thank you. I love your recommendations. I recommend either the book or the show Station Eleven , and it’s a post-apocalyptic show story about the power of art and creativity in helping us endure trauma and change and uncertainty, and it’s beautiful. I loved it so much that I couldn’t finish it. I wasn’t ready to part ways with it.

[00:30:11] Bonni: Oh.

[00:30:12] Mays: I recommend that. For our music lovers, I recommend Mustafa the Poet who is a Somali Canadian beautiful artist. He released a recent album and it is heartbreaking and heartwarming, it’s a tribute to his friend Ali. What else? To learn more about this, I would recommend, Maureen Linker’s book, Intellectual Empathy: for Social Justice .

[00:30:50] Bonni: Such great recommendations. I’m so glad to get to have this follow-up conversation with you. Thank you so much for introducing me to this wide array of reading and research that feel so new and fresh to me and so important. I’m so glad to be a small part of. Hopefully getting to have other people be introduced to it as well. I hope people will check out the show notes because there’s a lot of great resources there as well as the recommendations too. Thank you for coming back on Teaching in Higher Ed .

[00:31:18] Mays: Thank you so much and thank you for this beautiful work that you do.

[00:31:24] Bonni: Thanks once again to Mays Imad for joining me for today’s episode of Teaching in Higher Ed .

If you’d like to see the show notes for today’s episode, head on over to teachinginhighered.com/410. If you would like to not have to remember to do that every time, I invite you to sign up for the weekly update. You can do that by going to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. Once a week, you will receive from me an email that has the most recent podcast guest, other related episodes, some recommendations that are beyond what shows up in the episodes, quotable words, and a little preview of the following week’s episode. Again, I encourage you to head over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. Thanks for listening, and I’ll see you next time.

[00:32:26] [END OF AUDIO]

The transcript of this episode has been made possible through a financial contribution by the Association of College and University Educators (ACUE). ACUE is on a mission to ensure student success through quality instruction. In partnership with institutions of higher education nationwide, ACUE supports and credentials faculty members in the use of evidence-based teaching practices that drive student engagement, retention, and learning. 

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.

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Critical Thinking

This is the second episode of a four-part series of the soft skills we need to succeed in our squiggly career. This week Helen and Sarah take on the topic of critical thinking and review two books to learn more.

Helen reads Framers by Francis de Véricourt, Kenneth Cukier, and Viktor Mayer-Schönberger and Sarah reads Harvard Business Review’s brand new book The HBR Guide to Critical Thinking .

Together they share insights, ideas, and actions to develop your approach to critical thinking at work.

To learn more about the topic, browse through these free resources from Reboot Foundation , an organisation dedicated to elevating critical thinking.

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Episode Transcript

Podcast: Critical Thinking

Date: 17 January 2023

00:00:00: Introduction 00:01:55: Books and quotes on critical thinking 00:08:16: Learning by doing versus learning by explaining 00:10:48: Cognitive foraging 00:12:28: Constraints 00:15:01: Problem statements 00:19:42: Having the right people for critical thinking 00:25:38: Integrative thinking 00:35:00: Idea for action: harnessing mental models 00:36:55: Idea for action: practise writing problem statements 00:38:06: Recommendations for readership 00:42:04: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper : Hi, I'm Helen. Sarah Ellis : And I'm Sarah. Helen Tupper : And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly show where we talk about the ups and downs and ins and outs of a Squiggly Career, and share insights, ideas and things that you can take action with, so you can take back a bit of control of what might be going on for you at work right now.  And we always find that it is quite cathartic for both Sarah and I too, because a lot of these topics that we talk to you about are things that we are going through as well. Sarah Ellis : So, today is part two of our Squiggly Soft Skills series, very hard to say, but hopefully it's proving useful so far.  We covered Originality last week, today we'll be talking about Critical Thinking, and then we're going to move onto Social Influence, mainly because I think Helen and I are really intrigued about what that is, we don't really understand it, and Stress Tolerance.  So, those are the four skills that we're going to be covering.  And we were inspired by the World Economic Forum of soft skills that they thought were going to be particularly useful by 2025, so we've used that as a bit of an anchor. Similar to the series we did back in the summer in 2022, each week we both read a different book about the topic, and then we don't talk to each other before it, we do make sure we've not read the same book, which very nearly happened last week, which shows how organised/disorganised we are, and as we go through the podcast, we quickly talk about a quote, so one quote that's really stood out to us from the book; we talk about three things that we've learnt, so some insights that we want to share with you, so that you get a feel for whether it might be an interesting thing for you to read or dive a bit deeper into; we'll then talk about an action that you can take if you want to increase your Critical Thinking, as we'll be talking about today; and then finish with who should read this book, is it a book for everyone, is it a book for some people? I always feel you get a bit of a feel and a flavour for our thoughts on the book and how much we enjoyed it as we go through as well, as a bit of a bonus.  So, Helen, what was your book of choice for critical thinking? Helen Tupper : Well, I picked up a book that I already had on my shelf, because you know like book guilt -- Sarah Ellis : Efficient! Helen Tupper : Well, when I'm like, "Oh, let's buy a new book", and I'm like, "Yeah, but I have quite a lot that I've not read yet", and so I must have ordered the book, Framers , at some point last year, subtitle: Human Advantage in an Age of Technology and Turmoil.  It's all basically about how you can harness the frames that you use to look at the world and at work to make better decisions.  I thought, in the context of critical thinking, how you choose frames would be a really helpful thing to learn a bit more about.  So, that was my choice; what did you choose? Sarah Ellis : So, I've chosen the HBR Guide to Critical Thinking , so does what it says on the tin; very straight down the line for this choice!  And slight disclaimer, we did go back and forth as to whether we should choose it because of this, but we are in that book.  So, one of the articles that we wrote about learning and how to make development part of your day-to-day has sort of been edited, slightly reworked and is part of that critical thinking book.  But I'm not going to talk about that today, because we've done a podcast on it before, and actually I think there are other articles that are much more focused on critical thinking that we're going to emphasise and spend a bit more time exploring. The other thing, which I also hope is not annoying, is the book isn't out until I think it's mid-February, but you can pre-order it now, so the links will all be in the show notes for the podcast, and hopefully it's not too long to wait, and we felt like it was such a specific read for the skill, it felt like a shame not to include it, and we were obviously lucky that we could read it a little bit early.  So, I feel like we've had a little bit of sneak preview; one of the advantages of the Squiggly Careers podcast! Helen Tupper : So, we wanted to start with the quotes that have stood out for us in reading the book, and maybe I'll go first with this.  I think this quote that I'm going to say, it stood out for me, not because I think it's the world's most amazing and inspiring quote, but I think it actually explains what framing is in a really simple, practical way, because I don't think it's something we talk about all the time, this idea of framing.  So, the quote that I captured was, "The frames we employ affect the options that we see, the decisions that we make and the results that we attain.  By being better at framing, we get to better outcomes".  So, I thought it was quite a good explanation and a justification of why we might want to do this. Then, there's a nice, little example just to bring it to life, of framing, which is wearing masks.  So, in the pandemic, obviously all around the world we had to wear masks, and it talks about how people framed the pandemic, and mask-wearing sort of informed how they felt about it.  So for example if, when you looked at masks, your frame was all around your freedom and personal choice, then you would see wearing a mask as a bad thing, because you would see it as taking away personal choice on masks because you were being forced to wear it; whereas, if your frame was more about health, you would see wearing a mask as a good thing, because you would think that wearing a mask reduces the amount of germs that you were sharing. It basically says that, depending on what frame you use, or the language I would probably use is, "What lens you look through", depending on your lens or your frame can very much affect your decision.  So, if you are only looking at your world of work through one lens, you're probably only making one type of decision about your development, for example.  Whereas, if you get better at seeing your work through lots of different lenses, you can see different perspectives and it might give you more options and hopefully help you get to better decisions. Sarah Ellis : Yeah, that all made sense to me. Helen Tupper : Good, I'm glad! Sarah Ellis : That was helpful.  One of the quotes I pulled out and actually haven't chosen, I had also gone down the definition route of, "How do we define critical thinking?" which I probably will still come back to.  But I did pick out a slightly different quote, which I think is probably quite an appealing one for lots of us.  So, the HBR Guide to Critical Thinking has lots of authors, so I will do my best to credit everybody as we go through, because there must be, I don't know, 15, 20 different people who've contributed in some way. This is from a guy called Srini Pillay and he says, "Simply using your brain for crossing items off your to-do list is a poor use of a very sophisticated machine". Helen Tupper : I like this! Sarah Ellis : I did.  And it just really stood out to me, as one of the things as I was going through with critical thinking is, I don't think it's an easy skill.  And actually, I went back and re-read a couple of the chapters.  Each chapter is sort of an article in its own right; it's very pick-uppable and put-downable in, as in you could just read about integrated thinking, which I'm going to talk about later, and then you could come back to it.  But it's not so simplistic that you just think straightaway, I know exactly what to do with that.  I think you have to spend some time with it, you have to keep coming back to it. Almost part of the argument, I think, for critical thinking is going, "We've got the brains to do this, we've all got the brains to do this, and we've got to almost choose to use them in this way, and not let split attention and distraction and multitasking and pace, which we've all got very used to and/or addicted to, get in the way of critical thinking, because those things are all very detrimental.  If you want to be better at critical thinking, essentially you've got to make some choices as well, I think, about how quickly you do things and how present you want to be and how mindful you are. Helen Tupper : That's very aligned with the premise of framers as well, because that idea that it's human advantage, it says that there's lots of stuff that technology can do; but if you can develop this skill of critical thinking, it's a very unique human skill that can give you advantage if you have it. Sarah Ellis : Yeah, I got to the same conclusion actually reading it as well.  So, do you want to go first; what were your three insights; what can we learn; how can we be better framers? Helen Tupper : Well, I don't know how useful my insights will be.  I was going through all my notes and it was just a collection of stuff I captured and I was like, "Is this useful for people?"  I don't know.  But this is what I wrote down, my three things. Sarah Ellis : I feel like you've really framed that, by the way, talking about framing.  I'm like, "She's framed us to go, 'I'm not sure this is that useful'", so are you priming us there to be, "Oh, no, it is actually really useful"; is she actually using one of the techniques in the book? Helen Tupper : I mean, you're totally overthinking it!  No, I literally just went through my notes and was like, "This is a random collection of stuff that I decided to write down!"  But here's my random collection of stuff. So, the first one, I wrote down something about learning by doing versus learning by explaining.  So in the book, they talk about that we can learn a lot more and we get better at the work that we do when we explain why and how we're doing it, so you don't just do it on autopilot.  An example of this for me, I was trying to think about what this would look like in my work.  So, every week, I review all the social media copy and posts that Amazing If put out on lots of different platforms.  And a lot of the time, I just do that; I just do it on autopilot as a task to be done and I get it done. But if I took five minutes and I explained why I did it and why I did it in a certain way, then I might be able to understand more about the frames that I'm using.  Okay, so the frame that I'm using is "efficiency", because I'm trying to get it done that way.  What if I framed it with "impact"; would I do it differently?  And there's a quote that illustrates this.  It says, "As humans explain the world using frames, they learn more about the world they're explaining and generate deeper and more accurate insights". So, when you explain why you're working in that way, you can unlock some of the frames you're using, if that makes sense, which can then help you to think, "Well, if I took on a different frame, would I do this in a different way?"  I just thought, it's not a nice, neat learning, but it did make me stop and think. Sarah Ellis : Yeah, and I think that also might be useful to explain to other people why you're approaching something in a certain way.  You know often, if you're just on the receiving end of something, so let's say you were doing a bit of work and I just see it happen but I'm not part of the process, if you explained to me, "I appreciate the frame I'm using at the moment is efficiency", and then you and I have a conversation about, "Well, what would happen if you used a different frame; or is that the right frame?"  And then what we might decide is, "Yeah, that's absolutely the right frame".  But then I've got a better understanding as well. Also, that idea of you're including people in your approach, rather than keeping knowledge to yourself, and I think I've spotted a few examples recently where I'm like, "I'm going to have to take the time to explain how I would do this", and it's definitely time-consuming and often easier to not do that, but I think you probably know more and then other people learn more, if you get good at explaining the why and the how. Helen Tupper : Yeah, and I guess the shortcut is, "Name the frame"; explain it so that you can name the frame, and that makes it easier to maybe try a different one on.  So, yeah, it turns out maybe that was useful, that was a useful thing I wrote down! The second thing I wrote down, I just captured because I loved the term, and I sent it to you on WhatsApp.  I just captured this one bit of the book that I love.  It was the term, "cognitive foraging", and I just like this idea.  So basically, I think this is just a different word for curiosity.  This idea of cognitive foraging means learning from different people and different places, so you're acquiring lots of new knowledge. Again, the quote that I captured about this cognitive foraging term, aka curiosity, is, "By constantly looking, we are better at seeing", and I just thought that was just a really nice -- there was a thing that I was going to save and come back to quite a lot, that idea of constantly looking makes you better at seeing, just resonated with me quite a lot. Sarah Ellis : Yeah, that's nice.  I can imagine that that would go down differently in different organisations.  I've worked in some organisations where I think cognitive foraging would not go down well; people who are very straightforward and like to be simplistic.  Then, I've worked in other organisations who I think would absolutely love that; maybe very creative organisations are like, "Yes, I'd love to do some cognitive foraging". I suspect that's quite a divisive term, but your point in terms of why would you be doing that and how that's then helpful in terms of critical thinking, because curiosity definitely came up in the HBR Guide to Critical Thinking as well, more than I had expected and imagined.  And I was even saying to a group today that I was doing a workshop for, sometimes I don't think I would have necessarily made the connection between curiosity and critical thinking, but I definitely do now.  So, that's interesting how we both, reading very, very different things, got to that same connection. Helen Tupper : My last one is about constraints, which we've talked about before, the power of constraints.  You often think that constraints are quite limiting, but in terms of challenging your thinking, constraints can be really helpful, they come up a lot when you're looking at innovation.  But I think it was the example that I loved, when they were talking about constraints.  Do you know the book, Green Eggs and Ham ? Sarah Ellis : Yes, I have to read that quite frequently to my 5-year-old.  And do you know what, I've come round to it.  Initially, I was not a fan. Helen Tupper : This is the third book review that no one was expecting! Sarah Ellis : Yeah, it really is!  I was like, "I am not up for this book", but Max was quite enjoying it, my little boy, and he asked for it a few times, and I'm so keen for him to like reading because I like reading basically.  I was like, "Okay, yeah, we'll do that one again".  And now I've just found my rhythm with it, because it is a very rhythmic book.  So, yeah, I do know that book. Helen Tupper : Okay, so I'm going to connect the dots for you between constraints and this book, Green Eggs and Ham.  So, Zeuss, because it's written by Dr Zeuss, I don't know what his first name is, it's just Dr Zeuss and the Green Eggs and Ham book!  But anyway, Zeuss, his publisher bet him that he couldn't write a book with just 50 different words of 1 syllable each.  So, he gave him this constraint of basically 50 words, 1 syllable, and said, "Bet you can't do it".  He took that constraint and wrote the book, Green Eggs and Ham, which is full of these words, "Sam I am", this will all resonate with anyone who's read that book, and he created one of the bestselling children's books of all time. So, it was just this idea that with a constraint, so almost this frame of simplicity and restriction, in terms of what you could do, led to a whole new way of him thinking about it.  Now, I kind of go, "What's that got to do with critical thinking?" but I think the idea is, sometimes when you take a constraint and you limit your options -- so, it's hard to think critically when the world is very confusing, and sometimes you need to create some simplicity so that you can think more critically about a situation. It just made me think, if you're overwhelmed, let's say you've got a career decision to make and it feels really overwhelming, maybe think about some constraints that you could apply to it that could just narrow down your options and help you to get a bit more critical.  That was where I got to, but I also just like the example, because I know the book very well. Sarah Ellis : And actually, when I talk about integrated thinking, I think that will challenge one of the things that you've just said, and reinforce one thing.  So, I think that will be quite interesting.  So, shall I go through my three insights? Helen Tupper : Yeah. Sarah Ellis : So, the first one is a very practical one, and this does actually also link to the action that I would suggest everybody has a go at, because I actually did have a go at this today and found I could do it quite quickly.  So as I said, some of the things on critical thinking take a bit of practice and I've re-read some of the chapters; but one of the ideas for action, which is from David Markowitz, is this idea of problem statements.  If you want to get better at critical thinking, practise writing problem statements, particularly practise writing problem statements almost, to use your language, with different frames of reference.  So, I didn't know we were going to connect those dots, but actually that's exactly what he's suggesting you do. For example, let's imagine you're really busy and you're going to write some problem statements about, you feel like you're too busy, you're too overwhelmed.  So, you could write a problem statement that sounded like, "I've got too much work and not enough time", and that's a very individual frame, it's like, " I have got too much work and I have not got enough time".  That's a problem statement. You could write a problem statement more from a cultural perspective, which might sound more like, "How do we get better at improving our prioritising process?"  So, that's less about me, that's more about us, that's more about ways of working, that's more of a cultural lens on that problem.  Or, it could be more about maybe, you're zooming out I guess even further, an organisation problem statement which is, "How can we understand what is the work that we do that has the most positive impact?" None of those problem statements are wrong, but you would solve each of those problem statements with very different solutions, so that's the point.  So, by actually doing multiple problem statements and then almost thinking either for yourself or in a team or in a group, which one of those problem statements, specifically choosing, are we starting with?  Then you make sure you're solving for the right thing, because you know otherwise you get to that thing of, "Well, we've solved the problem, but have we solved the right problem?" Actually, you might then say, "This does feel like a really individual problem, because actually maybe no one else in the team feels the same", or "Actually, maybe this organisation's very good at prioritising", or maybe, "We're really clear what has the most positive impact, but for some reason I'm struggling a little bit with how much work I've got to do and not enough time".  So, that is the right problem statement to start with. One of the things that they talk about is, so often that part gets missed or it's done too quickly, and it's almost the same as when you and I used to work in marketing; if you don't write a good brief, you don't get to good work.  I feel like, if you want to do really good, quality, critical thinking, you need a very good problem statement and you need to make sure that you've not done that too quickly, but also you've not only looked at it through one frame. I read that chapter, that article, about problem statements and doing the different perspectives, and could then have a go at that quite quickly.  And I just thought, I can imagine that would be useful in lots of different situations. Helen Tupper : It reminds me of when I've done jobs before and I've not really known what I'm doing, and I couldn't really rely on my insight and experience to add value, so I'll be really specific about this, when I joined Microsoft and I had no idea what my job was, I couldn't really give anyone any answers.  So, what I started to get good at was asking questions because that was the way that I could add value to a room.  And I would often ask people, "What is the problem we're trying to solve?" because I would find very much in the large corporations that I worked in, that sometimes you have so many meetings and so much discussion that sometimes, people don't know what they're talking about any more, in the nicest possible sense, like, "Why are we here?"! So, just taking a bit of time out to ask that, "What is the problem we're trying to solve?" is really interesting.  And what's even better is when you don't do it in group discussions, so when you get people to write it down, "What is the problem we're trying to solve?" and then look at their answers, you realise that everyone thinks they're trying to solve a different problem.  It's quite good, I think, midway through projects and stuff to do something like that, and then almost to hold the problems up and be like, "Okay, there's a bit of variation here, so which is the one we want to move forward with?" Sarah Ellis : I can't remember if it was this article or one of the others, but they gave that as an example, as an exercise; if you're working on something with people, make sure that that problem statement doesn't get lost, and almost do that test of get everybody to write it down and people often have some quite important differences, even if they're along the right lines, that actually can be really helpful.  So actually, that's another kind of practical action that you could take. So, my second insight was about having the right people in the room/Zoom for critical thinking, creating the conditions for critical thinking, and here I'm merging a few of the different articles that I read.  So, there was one by a lady called Cheryl Einhorn, who talks about your problem-solving profiles.  We all love a profile, don't we, because it's quite appealing to be, "Oh, yes, I'm that one versus that one"; even though actually in lots of ways I'm quite anti them, I still found myself quite drawn to reading this article, partly because I was working out what you are and what I am. She describes these different profiles: listener, detective, visionary, thinker and adventurer, and you can obviously have a bit of an accumulation of a few different profiles.  But it's really interesting reading it, because you are definitely an adventure problem-solver, so that means you're optimistic, you've got a bias for action, you always want to move at pace.  Then, I have a thinker profile, so I want time to think, I like to get different people's points of view on the problem, I don't want to be forced into one answer, I like exploring options. It is quite helpful perhaps to just think about what problem-solving profiles do you have, which one are you, and what do you have within your team, because actually it is a really good thing to have complementary styles.  You don't want everybody who's an adventurer, because you'd probably have quite a lot of fun, to be honest; when you read it, I'm like, "They're probably having fun together", but they could climb the wrong mountain, essentially.  And you don't want just thinkers, because then they'd never climb any mountain, because they'd never make a decision about which was the right mountain to climb. It actually made me think from a team perspective, I was like, "It would be really interesting for us all to dive a bit deeper into that", because I'd not come across those before, and just think about what are our problem-solving profiles.  But more generally, there are lots of examples in the different articles about how actually one of the things you can do, if you want to be a better critical thinker, is consider who are you inviting into your conversations.  People who are often particularly useful are people who understand your world, but who are not in it. There's one example of, I think they were talking about a team that were coming up with an innovation framework, and this guy invited his executive assistant to contribute to the conversation.  What she basically said was, "I've been in this organisation for 15 years, you've done three innovation frameworks before, none of them have ever worked, no one ever likes them, they're just basically the latest shiny object.  I'm not sure that's what people need, to be honest".  He said, what was so funny is they were solving the wrong problem, so they were thinking they had to come up with an innovation framework, whereas actually it was a completely different thing they needed to be spending their time on.  So, she was right because she understood the organisation, but she wasn't in that team day-to-day. Also, you want people who can be open and honest, so they actually make the explicit link to psychological safety.  So, if that lady had been scared of her boss or those people, she's not going to say those things, and she obviously felt like she could do that.  They actually mentioned, "You've got to be able to get people who can speak truth to different kinds of power".  Then finally, those people's job is not to come up with solutions to the problems; those people's job is to give input.  So, as we've described it before, it reminded me of when we've talked about challenge and build.  So, if you want to get better at critical thinking, how often are you inviting challenge and build on your ideas, on your pieces of work; are you creating the conditions or an environment where you can do that? Then, to your point, one of the definite themes or threads that runs through critical thinking is, your job is more to ask questions, get really good at asking open questions, "what if" questions, "What might we be missing?  Helen, I'd really appreciate your perspective on that"; what are the voices that you're not hearing.  So, I think something that almost challenged me a bit to think, you know often you think, "How can I get better at critical thinking?  That should all be about me and my skillset"; but actually, quite a big part of it is actually thinking about other people: are you getting other people's perspectives; who are you inviting into those conversations; and then are you asking really good questions; are you making sure that you're not expecting those people to solve your problems for you?  But that's how you get better at that sort of critical analysis; who is in part of that conversation is really important. Helen Tupper : Listening to you, it reminds me a little bit of, you know Edward de Bono's Six Thinking Hats , and this idea that you're wearing these different hats?  I think I was just quickly having a look at them to remember them all.  There's a facts hat, a cautions one, a creativity, a feelings, a benefits and a process.  It's almost, giving people a different part to play means they'll put a different perspective into the conversation, and maybe doing it intentionally can really help, and avoid stuff like groupthink. The other think I thought was maybe, and often my context is large organisations, but maybe it's the same with small organisations too, but sometimes you get stuck in these silos where the marketing team doesn't talk to whatever team; I was thinking whether you could have a cross-functional critique.  So, you're inviting someone from another function to do that challenge and build, and you're giving them that opportunity, and then you could do it for them.  I think it could be a really constructive way that you could invite this more critical thinking in, with these people with different insights and perspectives, and also tackle some of the potential organisational silos that arise often in big companies too. Sarah Ellis : Yeah, and it so rarely happens.  I was just thinking about, how often was I part of those conversations?  Quite rarely really, because I think people get quite protectionist of their function, probably rightly so, because they've probably had experiences where if you're not like that, maybe you lose budget or things don't happen.  But I think if you want to be in that high-trust environment, that's exactly the sort of behaviour that you would expect to see.  That was really interesting, and there's lots more that you can dive into on that if you're interested in that. Then, my third insight, and I did hesitate about whether to include this, because this is not easy and this was the article that I read a couple of times, and they even finish the article by saying, "This is almost like a newer area of research".  They were talking about the potential of it being taught in business schools, but I actually don't think it is at the moment, and it is this idea of integrative thinking.  It's written by somebody called Roger Martin.  So, I tried to then summarise some thoughts on integrative thinking that I hope might help everyone to at least get started with it, because I feel like I have got started.  That's me framing managing expectations! One of the things that Roger Martin talks about is essentially these leaders who seem to be incredibly successful and how they think differently.  They seem to be able to do this integrative thinking.  And one of the features of this is that these leaders are very comfortable holding two opposing ideas in their heads at once, and having multiple hypotheses.  So, one of the things I've not talked about today is, one of the articles in the book is about "act like a scientist".  And the reason I've not is because we did a podcast on that last year, because it was a really good HBR article. If you follow the scientific process in a very purist way, you would have one hypothesis that you need to go away and test that hypothesis, you need to make sure you measure it, etc.  Whereas actually, what he's saying here is, people who are really good at having these opposing ideas and these multiple hypotheses, they're very, very open, and they start from an approach of, rather than the same again, they are motivated by shaping the world to make it better.  So, rather than more of the same, they're very motivated by difference, or they're not constrained I guess by what has gone before.  So, that's sort of starting to describe maybe what it would feel like or look like. They are very good at questioning maybe obvious connections.  So, you know in organisations, people say, "But if we ever do this activity, then this thing happens", so almost like an "if, then", "If we put our prices up, then this thing always happens"?  What these people are not afraid to do is to ask "what if" questions, "Okay, well what if we tripled those prices; or, what if we stopped selling these things for a while?"  They'll almost ask potentially unreasonable questions, or unrealistic questions, because they're stress-testing some of the assumptions that exist in an organisation.  They're very, very questioning, I would say, reading it. I think at times, that must feel quite confronting and challenging, because the people certainly that he's talked to, and it's hundreds, but are often in very, very senior positions.  So, they're digging in, they probably don't let stuff go.  I was trying to think as I was reading through it, thinking of one particular leader I worked for and I was like, "They were quite like this and they were brilliant", but at times I'm not always sure it felt brilliant.  But maybe if I had understood some of this a bit better, it actually might have helped me in terms of what they were trying to do. What's interesting about these people, and this is counter to what you were talking about earlier maybe in terms of simplicity, is they're so good at critical thinking, they can see all these hypotheses, they can hold the whole problem and picture in their heads at once, and they enjoy and embrace the messiness, the complexity, and they don't feel constrained by, "I must choose an option", "We need to choose option A, B or C".  They'll be like, "There might be a D"; they'll come up with a Z; they'll be like, "Well, maybe it's something completely different".  They sort of have a confidence in actually, "Yes, this feels complicated and messy and there's loads of options and I don't need to simplify". You know we all search for simplicity?  I got a sense that these people potentially do the opposite, because these are not small problems, this is not the time for small problems; these are maybe big things that you're trying to solve.  And so oversimplifying something that's really complex wouldn't be the right thing to do, feeling like we should do what we've always done is not how you unlock new ideas and new opportunities.  So, I found it less specific, in terms of going, "What am I now going to go away and do?"  I was still trying to get to some of those conclusions. Certainly asking "what if" questions, I think we can all do that, "What if that…?"; not being afraid to dive a bit deeper and to question assumptions, I think is definitely something we could all try; and not being afraid of the messiness and complexity.  I thought that was quite a good reminder that sometimes things are messy and complex, and that is okay.  And he describes them as sort of like architects, in that they don't see one room like, "I'm going to design a really nice bathroom and then I'm going to worry about a really nice kitchen", or whatever; they've sort of created a mental image, a mental model of it all, and they just hold it all at the same time. I was like, actually that bit quite appeals to me, because some of it I think is more naturally the way that I would work and I definitely don't oversimplify, that's not my problem, and I am quite happy with sometimes living with different options and messiness, and just feeling that confidence and that reassurance of, "I feel okay, I feel like we'll find our way".  So, some of it actually reading, I found reassuring, because some of the behaviours, maybe not all of them, I could recognise in myself.  How you go away and then get lots better at it, it's probably the one article I read in the book, as I said they're a series of a collection of articles, where I thought, "I think I'm going to go away and read this book".  So, the guy's actually written a book on, I think it was called something like Thinking Differently, and I thought, "This is interesting, I want to dive a bit deeper". Helen Tupper : I am glad that you got to that conclusion, because actually listening to you, I saw a lot of you in that, because I do think when Sarah and I are talking, I'll be like, "Where is our business going; what do we want to be by 2025?" and Sarah will often try to hold the space a bit more and say, "We could be lots of different things, why do we need to decide now?"  I had two insights in listening to you: one, it is really valuable, if you are an integrative thinker, as I've put that hat on you now, if you are that, it's really useful to spend time with people like Sarah, because sometimes when I feel like I'm closing down an option too quickly, or trying to oversimplify something, just spending time with someone like Sarah can help you to stay a bit more open for longer.  So, I think maybe spot the people that might have some of the characteristics Sarah has talked about, and think about how you could spend time with them. But then, I also think for integrative thinkers, there is a bit of self-awareness that you need, which is that not everybody thinks like you and that actually, it can be a little bit uncomfortable for other people to sit with that ambiguity.  People do like clarity, so I think there is a point at which you have to recognise that this is an individual skill that you've got that definitely has value, but that sometimes you might need to create those constraints for other people, so that they can work in a way that also works for them. Sarah Ellis : It probably means, if you're good at it, you've got those critical thinking skills, or maybe you can get even better at those critical thinking skills.  I think it's also about recognising where to apply those skills, you know like the application of those things, because I can see in myself sometimes where I might get it wrong is, you know not all problems are born equal; some problems do need to be simplified, you do need options and you do need to make a decision, and you don't need to do all of those things that I've just described.  And then, there are other times where actually that's incredibly useful. So, there is something, and actually this isn't talked about, maybe we're building on it, who knows, I do think there's the adaptability that goes alongside it; because whether you're in a small organisation like we're in now, or in massive ones like we've been in before, you're doing very different things day-to-day.  So, I can't believe that approach is useful all day, every day.  And I think your point is a really good one as well about, you know like even I described I worked for someone who was even better at it than me, and I probably learnt a bit from that person; if I had understood it a bit better, I think I would have benefitted from it more. Like you said, I think I would have embraced -- this person, I would say, was even happier with the messiness, complexity, than I was.  And so, if I had known that's what we were doing, it was almost like, "This thing is important enough that it's okay for that", I think then it would have helped me to almost manage it a bit better and almost go with the flow a bit.  I think you've got to go with the flow when you're going through that process I described.  But if that's happening to you, rather than with you, I think that's probably a very different experience. Helen Tupper : So, on to action, and what from our reading do we recommend that you could go away and do to support yourself with this skill of critical thinking?  Well, I'm going to go right to the back of my book, Framers, which there's a two-page section, so you have to read quite a lot to get to the action, and there's two pages at the end of it which is A Guide to Working With Frames, and they basically give you the stuff that you can go and do.  Part one of this is what I'm going to recommend, which is harnessing mental models.  So, these are the kind of frames that we all use every day. It says basically, "Identify and inspect the assumptions in your mental models", so I think that is that point that we said earlier, like explain why you're doing something and just think about, "What frame am I using; and, is it the right frame?" so that's the point I mentioned earlier.  So, when you're making a decision, I would just think about, "What is the frame that I'm using?" and just be really like, name the frame, as we talked about earlier. Ask "why" and "how" questions so, "Why am I using this frame?  How would my decision be different if I used a different one", or like Sarah said, the "what if" question comes up in this book as well, "What if I used Sarah's frame?" or, "What if I used my manager's frame; what then?" and just basically try on a few different frames, and see what different decisions you would make.  And it says that, "When your views clash with somebody else's, try to characterise the way that they see the world".  So, if Sarah and I are having a bit of friction, then one thing that would be really useful is to think about the frame that Sarah's using, just so I can understand where she's coming from. So, I think name the frame, understand the frame that might be causing the friction, and use some of those "why, what ifs, [and] how could" questions, are just good ways, I think, to not just take things as they are, but maybe be able to see things a bit differently to make better decisions, which is what the framing thing's all about. Sarah Ellis : I found that interesting and useful. Helen Tupper : Good, I'm glad! Sarah Ellis : Mine is the very simple one that I mentioned as part of the first insight, practise writing problem statements.  I think for any project, I think you could do this for your career, if you were trying to think about career change or promotion or what next; you could do this for team ways of working.  I think sometimes, even the word "problem" can intuitively and obviously feel negative.  But I think almost let go of this idea of a problem statement being, "It means we've got a problem"; really what you're defining in a problem statement is something that you want to improve, something you want to do better or get better at. I think don't be too binary in how you're defining problems, because I think then that might actually limit how often and how useful this would be.  When I think about problem statements, I can think most days, we're probably working on something where I can imagine writing some problem statements from different perspectives could be useful.  So, when you're thinking about having a go at doing this, don't start with, "What's a problem?" in a negative way; start with, "What do I want to change; what do I want to get better; how do we want to improve?" So, who do you think should read Framers, Helen? Helen Tupper : Well, I think I would only recommend framers to somebody that wanted to get quite expert into framing, because I've worked quite hard I think to pull out stuff that you can do on a day-to-day basis at work, and I've had to read the whole book and pull that out, and it wasn't the easiest thing to do.  But I did enjoy reading about it at an academic level.  I mean, it talks about the pluralism of framing, and it talks about counterfactual arguments and causal effects.  And there's a whole section of correlation and causation!  So, if that sort of stuff -- Sarah Ellis : Which I still get confused about! Helen Tupper : Exactly!  So, that sort of stuff, if that's what you get really interested in, then this book will really help you, because it basically dives very deeply into that.  But if you just go, "Yeah, I've got it, it's the lenses you look through the world and I need to try some different things on", then you've probably got enough from this podcast, I think. Sarah Ellis : And the HBR Guide to Critical Thinking, so the pros of that book are firstly, it's short.  It's short, it's very specific, and it does what it says on the tin, in terms of critical thinking.  It is a collection of articles, so rather than a book from start to finish that flows and is written by one author, and so I think that has pros and cons.  I think what I liked about the critical thinking one is then it's lots of different people approaching critical thinking with their area of expertise. For example, our contribution to that is about learning, making learning part of your day-to-day and how you can be more curious, which will help your critical thinking.  We're contributing the bit that we're really good at.  And then, Roger Martin is then talking about integrative thinking, that's the bit he's really good at.  So, I think I really enjoyed the variety of perspectives and people sharing different points of view on critical thinking. The bit that perhaps is missing for me, and this is true I think of all the HBR Guides To, because this is not really what they're designed to do, there is nothing at the end where they then say, "Right, so we have distilled all of this together and really thought about the actions that you could take at work".  You have to do that work for yourself.  And in some of the articles, that's easier to do than others.  So, if you were thinking, "I want a list of ten things, ten ideas for action that's going to help me with my critical thinking", I think you would get there, and actually it wouldn't take you long to read the different articles, and as I say it's very easy to pick up and put down. But there are some I just read and I came away going, "That's interesting", but there's not necessarily the "so what"; then I think there's some that you read where you're like, "That's really interesting, I'm going to read it again", which I did; then there's some where you go, "That's interesting and I'm clear about what I might go away and do differently".  So, there's a mix of tone and styles.  Some of the articles are only two pages long, some of them are more like eight. I think for anyone who wants to be more strategic, I hear that a lot from people, "How do I be more strategic?" I think it would be a really good book, because sometimes strategic feels quite vague and I think one way to be more strategic is to get better at critical thinking; anyone who wants to, as I said around problems, if your job is about change, I think it would be really useful.  I don't think you have to be a leader or manager to read the book, but quite a bit of the emphasis in some of the articles is on people in those kinds of roles, but I don't think it matters too much what role you're in. But I really recommend it and I've read quite a lot of the HBR Guides To.  I'm looking on my shelf behind me right now, I think I've got 11 or 12 of them, and I would say it's one of the better ones of that style of book that I've read, I think, in terms of I was thinking, "I'm going to keep coming back to this, I'm going to dive a bit deeper".  I can imagine getting it off the bookshelf, putting it as a permanent place on the bookshelf.  It's very good. Helen Tupper : So, given one of the values of our business, Amazing If, is "useful", that is often the frame that we use for a lot of the things that we create.  And so, to make this episode even more useful for you, we have pulled together the insights, the ideas and the actions that we think are useful in the context of critical thinking, and we've put it into our PodSheet.  So, if you like this topic and you want to invest in this skill, download the PodSheet, which will summarise lots of what we've talked about, and it makes it easier for you to take action. You can always get the link to the PodSheet from the show notes, largely on Apple, I think is the easiest place to find it; but also it's on our website .  So, on amazingif.com, there's a podcast page , you just click on the relevant podcast and you'll always find the PodSheet.  You can download it and fill it out and use it with your team, so hopefully that will help you take what you've listened to from Sarah and me and put it into action in terms of your development. Sarah Ellis : So, that's everything for this week.  We will be back next week with Social Influence, which I can't tell you much about yet, because I've not read the book yet! Helen Tupper : What does that mean?! Sarah Ellis : But I'm very much looking forward to talking about it and learning more about it.  Thank you all so much for listening, we're always so glad to have you with us, and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now. Helen Tupper : Bye everyone.

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Episode 70: NahamCon and CSP Bypasses Everywhere

Episode 70: In this episode of Critical Thinking - Bug Bounty Podcast we’re once again joined by Ben Sadeghipour to talk about some Nahamcon news, as well as discuss a couple other LHE’s taking place. Then they cover CI/CD an...

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Justin Gardner (@rhynorater)

Full-time Bug Bounty Hunter

Justin is a full-time bug bounty hunter and top-ranked live hacking event competitor. He has taken home two Most Valuable Hacker awards and countless other 1st place & 2nd place trophies.

While Justin specializes in web hacking, he also dabbles in IoT and mobile hacking. He is also the HackerOne Ambassador for the Eastern US region.

Outside of hacking, Justin enjoys Volleyball, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and Real Estate investing.

Joel Margolis (@0xteknogeek)

AppSec @ Match Group

Joel is a appsec engineer at Match Group (the parent company of Tinder, Hinge, Plenty of Fish, OkCupid, Archer, and other dating apps). Joel is also a top bug bounty hunter and has participated and received awards in 30+ live hacking events.

Joel also has experience running a bug bounty program from his time with Uber and Tinder, so he understands the program side as well.

Outside of hacking, Joel enjoys hanging, playing Jazz music, playing with his dog, Max, and tinkering with his home automation system.

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Critical Thinking

• Jan 31 2024
• Length: 36 mins

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Critical Thinking separates the greats from the goods. It is a significant differentiator in business success, whether you’re an individual or you’re a company, problem-solving in the box is not going to challenge the status quo and amplify innovation.

Some people are critical thinkers by nature, while others need to work on building this skill. 

How do you solve a problem when the solution isn’t the answer? Let’s dig into critical thinking and why it is a must-hone skill for today.

In this conversation, Mimi and Jackie discuss the importance of critical thinking in business and everyday life. They share personal experiences and insights on how to develop and apply critical thinking skills. They emphasize the need to question assumptions, consider different perspectives, and challenge the status quo. The conversation also explores the role of curiosity, emotions, and biases in critical thinking. The hosts provide practical tips for becoming a better critical thinker and highlight the benefits of collective intelligence. The conversation concludes with a toast to the power of critical thinking.

• Critical thinking is a crucial skill for success in business and life.
• Developing critical thinking skills involves questioning assumptions, considering different perspectives, and challenging the status quo.
• Curiosity, open-mindedness, and the ability to listen to different viewpoints are key to effective critical thinking.
• Balancing analytical thinking and big ideas can lead to innovative solutions and better decision-making.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• Funny Women of a Certain Age, Carole Montgomery (podcast) 
• Meet Jackie + Mimi’s Moms: A Mother’s Day Special (podcast) 

00:00 Introduction to Critical Thinking

02:40 Teaching Critical Thinking Skills

05:04 Defining Critical Thinking

06:19 The Process of Critical Thinking

08:24 Using Critical Thinking in Business

11:01 Challenges and Benefits of Critical Thinking

14:20 Overcoming Biases and Emotions

17:08 The Role of Curiosity in Critical Thinking

19:01 Trusting Your Instincts

25:18 Balancing Analytical Thinking and Big Ideas

29:27 Applying Critical Thinking in Sales

32:12 Becoming a Better Leader through Critical Thinking

34:30 Conclusion and Cheers

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‘Harvard Thinking’: How far has COVID set back students?

In podcast, an economist, a policy expert, and a teacher explain why learning losses are worse than many parents realize

Samantha Laine Perfas

Harvard Staff Writer

We’re now three academic years beyond the pandemic. A lot of families think things are back to normal. Thomas Kane disagrees.

“A lot of parents misperceive how much students have lost,” said the faculty director for the Center for Education Policy Research . “That has been one of the biggest things hampering the recovery, parents thinking things are fine now that kids are back in school.”

According to Kane’s research , on average students have lost about a half a grade level in math and a quarter of a grade level in reading. But that’s on average; individually, some schools are doing even better than before the pandemic, while others have lost as much as two grade levels in education.

Heather Hill , a co-director of the teacher education program at Harvard’s Graduate School of Education, said one thing she noticed was that students forgot how to “student.” Gone were skills in studying, sitting in classrooms, and taking notes.

“When teachers came back they said, ‘Wow, these kids have forgotten how to be students,’ and one of the things we saw pretty immediately was a rise in behavior issues,” Hill said. While a lot of those issues have been addressed, she said, others — like the rising absenteeism rates that are nearly double pre-pandemic levels — have not.

Stephanie Conklin, Ed.M.’06, a New York State Master Teacher who teaches math at Colonie Central High School, said educators are facing higher expectations than ever.

“We’re asked to be counselors, social workers, teach math, teach writing, and teach students how to be students,” Conklin said, pointing to rising rates of turnover and burnout. Guests talked about the need to better support teachers and what that might look like beyond pay raises.

In this episode, host Samantha Laine Perfas talks with Kane, Hill, and Conklin about post-pandemic challenges in the classroom and how to fix them.

Thomas Kane: A lot of parents misperceive how much students have lost. They see kids are back in school and they’re thinking everything’s back to normal. And honestly, that has been one of the biggest things hampering the recovery: parents thinking things are fine now that kids are back in school.

Samantha Laine Perfas: American schools took a big hit during the pandemic. On average, they lost half a grade level in math and a little less than that in reading. Some schools have come back, but many others have not, and some are in even worse shape. Other problems have also cropped up, like a surprising rise in absenteeism that spans geography and income. So what happens now?

Welcome to Harvard Thinking, a podcast where the life of the mind meets everyday life.

Today, I’m joined by:

Kane: Tom Kane. I’m a faculty director of the Center for Education Policy Research here at Harvard.

Laine Perfas: He works with school districts and state agencies to help them evaluate programs and policies. Since the pandemic, a lot of his research has focused on gains and losses in education. Then:

Heather Hill: Heather Hill. I am at Harvard GSE. My research focuses on mathematics teaching. I spend a lot of time in classrooms, which is one of my favorite things to do.

Laine Perfas: She also co-directs the teacher education program at GSE, Harvard’s Graduate School of Education, and helps prepare teachers for the classroom. And finally:

Stephanie Conklin: Stephanie Conklin. I’m a math teacher at Colonie Central High School.

Laine Perfas: She’s also a New York State Master Teacher and a graduate of GSE. She serves on the faculty at the University of Albany.

And I’m Samantha Laine Perfas, your host and a writer for The Harvard Gazette. And in this episode, we’ll explore what’s happening in our schools as they try to regain pandemic learning losses.

It’s not a surprise that education took a big hit during the pandemic, but I think there’s been some surprise regarding its lingering effects. I’d love to start the conversation with where things stand now. Maybe, Tom, you can start by talking a little bit about your research in this area.

Kane: Sam, as you said, it was not surprising that students lost ground during the pandemic. But I think many were surprised by just the magnitudes of the losses, especially in many high-poverty school districts in the U.S. Remember March of 2021, when the American Rescue Plan passed, people were sort of hoping that online learning was, maybe, 80 percent as good as in-person learning. We learned subsequently that many districts lost much more than 20 percent of their typical learning during that school year. Now, as a country, we lost about half of a grade level in math and we made up about a third of that. We lost about a quarter of a grade level in reading and we made up about one quarter of that. So we still have a ways to go, and that is on average. There are many districts that are much farther behind than that, like more than a grade level behind.

Laine Perfas: Yeah. I actually wanted to ask you about how the average somewhat hides the greater gaps that are at play. Because when I was looking at some of your research, I was seeing that some school districts are pretty much back to where they were, if not doing even better than before the pandemic. But other areas are significantly worse than pre-pandemic. What’s happening there and what districts seem to be recovering in a way that we would hope, and which districts are being left behind?

Kane: There was a lot of variation in the magnitude of losses, but two factors did play a role. One was high-poverty schools in every state were more likely to stay closed for longer. For instance, in Florida the average school went back sooner than the average school in Massachusetts. But still, even in Florida, the higher-poverty districts stayed closed for longer. And that was true in most other states. The second reason is that when schools closed the losses were larger for higher-poverty schools. Interestingly, in the places where schools did not close for long — like practically every school was closed in the spring of 2020 — but among those places that came back quickly in the fall of 2020, there wasn’t as much increase in inequality. High-poverty and low-poverty schools lost about the same amount of ground. It was in the places where schools were closed for half of the 2021 year or more, that’s where we really saw big differences in the magnitude of the losses.

Unfortunately, an untold story is that the higher-poverty districts in Massachusetts did the opposite of catching up between ’22 and ’23. They lost more ground. So Lynn, Massachusetts, is now basically two grade levels behind where they themselves were in 2019. Those gaps that existed before the pandemic are bigger now and all of the recovery in Massachusetts has been limited to the higher-income districts like Newton, Wellesley, Lexington. The higher-poverty districts like Lynn, Fall River, fell further behind between ’22 and ’23.

Hill: I think one of the issues about being home for a full year, which is what a lot of kids were in some cases in some of these urban districts, is that they forgot how to “student,” if you think about student as a verb. “Studenting” means paying attention, being engaged with your peers, being engaged with your teacher. When teachers came back they said, “Wow, these kids have forgotten how to be students,” and one of the things we saw pretty immediately was a rise in behavior issues on the part of kids. I would say from what I can tell, and I’d be curious what Stephanie thinks about this, I think those are worked out. But what teachers are also saying at this point is that the student engagement is not back yet.

Conklin: As Heather mentioned, when students came back to the classroom, besides just learning how to student, we also noticed that a lot of students’ skills in learning had really suffered. So for example, just students’ ability to retain facts and retain information, that is a real skill that we teach in schools. And then the other piece, too, to learning how to be a student, is being organized. Keeping track of eight classes for many of our students is a real struggle at the middle- and high-school level. And then not having had to do that for a year really made it even harder for students to access the curriculum. So many of us in education had to take a step back, not only reteach academic skills, we also have to teach, OK, how do you take notes in a math classroom? How do you use a calculator if you haven’t used it for a year?

Laine Perfas: It sounds like a big challenge has just been transitioning kids back to school. But another challenge that we’re seeing is actually getting kids back in the classroom in the first place. Can you talk about that and how absenteeism rates are really high right now?

Kane: Basically, chronic absenteeism rates have almost doubled from before the pandemic. By the way, when you yourself miss class, you miss more than a day. Obviously you miss that day you were gone, but the first day you’re back you’re maybe picking up 75 percent of what the teacher is saying. The second day you’re back you’re maybe picking up 80 percent of what the teacher is saying. But when you’re a teacher where 5 percent of kids are missing one day, but it’s a different 5 percent the next day, it’s a different 5 percent the next day. And then you’re trying to juggle and keep everybody going. It really becomes disruptive.

Laine Perfas: Are people still getting sick or is it just not seeing the value of attending school? What exactly is causing that huge increase in absenteeism?

Kane: I don’t think anybody really knows yet. At least part of it is likely due to the fact that I think parents are more aware of communicable diseases, whereas we might have sent our kid to school when they were coughing, now we might hesitate. But I think that is a small share of it. It’s more likely to be things like families have gotten out of their routines, kids, they’re more accustomed to being at home during a weekday of school.

Hill: I think parents are home more often as well at work from home, which takes the burden off of sending your kids to school because you’re like, “It’s not a big deal for you to be home.”

Conklin: For my students I take a picture of all my notes. I post my assignments online. Many of us educators got into a routine of making everything accessible for students, whether they’re in or out of the classroom. Now the positives to that are tremendous. I have students who will follow my notes on their iPad while taking notes with me in class, I have students if they’re absent a day here or there, they can catch up. However, I think that what that’s done is, if we have students who maybe are like, “Well, I’m not feeling great, I’m going to just stay home because Dr. Conklin always puts her notes online and I can catch up tomorrow.” I think families also have the same issue, but I did want to take Tom’s comment like a little bit farther about when a kid misses one day. In the educator perspective, we are not only trying to catch kids up for that day, teach them the content, but also from past things. Three years ago, they missed that content. So what I’m finding is it’s almost like whack-a-mole teaching. “OK, these five kids were out on Thursday. I need to catch them up on today’s lesson, but they still don’t know how to do these four topics.” But then I also have kids who I want to extend the lesson because they already know it. So we’re finding that teachers are not only scaffolding, differentiating lessons, it’s almost like too much for one human being to do, to have two to three different classrooms running in one classroom setting.

Hill: One of the things I think about teaching, which was already pre-pandemic a really difficult job for a lot of reasons, it’s become 20 percent harder. And that may not sound like, “Oh, it’s insurmountable.” But 20 percent harder day in, day out becomes really unsustainable. And I think one of the things that we’ve been seeing is increased teacher absence rates as well, which, paired with teacher shortages and sub shortages, puts schools in this really difficult position. So many of the schools that I’m in, it just feels very tenuous to be there because it erodes the social contract a little bit between students and teachers when you get that level of everybody’s absent and relationships can suffer.

Kane: So for all these reasons, it’s remarkable that between 2022 and 2023 kids did make up some of the ground. Students gained about .17 grade level in math, so that means that students learned roughly about 117 percent of what they would typically learn in math, which is remarkable. But a lot of that was paid for with federal dollars. People had extra resources to hire teachers’ aides or to hire tutors or expand summer school, and that federal money is expiring at the end of September.

Laine Perfas: I wanted to ask a little bit more about the relief dollars, because it seems like they helped. One, did they help, and was that a consistent benefit across the country? And then also, why is it ending in September if there’s clearly still pretty huge gaps that need to be bridged?

Kane: Remember, the American Rescue Plan, which provided this pot of federal money to school districts around the country, was passed in March of 2021; many schools were still closed. So that was before anybody knew how big the losses were going to be. And 90 percent of the money was sent directly to school districts. So basically 13,000 different school districts around the country were making up their own recovery plan. Some came up with better plans than others.

Unfortunately, the federal guidance on this was downright misleading because the federal law only required them to spend 20 percent on academic recovery. But a lot of districts like Lynn or Fall River that lost more than a grade level, there was no way they were going to be able to recover spending 20 percent of those federal dollars on academic recovery. There was simply no way. Imagine if at the beginning of the pandemic, the federal government said, “We’re not even going to try to come up with a vaccine. We’re going to send all the money out to local public health authorities and say, ‘You come up with your own solution.’” And that’s exactly what we did in education, is we put out $190 billion, 90 percent of it, directly to school districts. And then had them all figure out their own plans and some have made progress and some haven’t.

Conklin: I know, on the ground in my district, we’re spending a lot of money focusing on more teachers in classrooms. I teach an at-risk population. I’m math certified, but also special-ed certified, and I have a co-teacher. So there are two adults in my classroom at all times to support our special-ed students, all of our learners who are struggling, and so, at least in my district, I think we’ve been able to spend the money wisely, and we’ve been able to justify keeping those positions by changing how we’re funding other things. Now, when we talk about Lynn and other school districts in Massachusetts, they were probably underfunded to begin with. And so now they’re having to go back and figure out where can we put this money if it’s toward staffing, it’s toward students’ needs, in our high-poverty schools. How are we then going to justify keeping extra staff, which we know works? I’m in New York and high schools that I’m in touch with, our special-ed students who are consistently attending school because they have supports, they’re being really successful and they are catching up.

Kane: This is one place where I feel like both the federal government and states really dropped the ball during the pandemic. We had an opportunity to learn more about the efficacy of different strategies. The problem was we blew the opportunity to learn which of those strategies were most effective. So like in Stephanie’s school district, choosing to have a couple of teachers in a given classroom, that’s one strategy. Other districts did things like, they said, “We’re going to hire math coaches,” and other places said, “Oh, we’re going to really try to expand summer learning,” or, “We’re going to hire tutors.” And even if each of those has some positive effect, I don’t think we have a good sense now, a better sense than we did before the pandemic, of what is the bang for the buck for these different strategies. School districts weren’t tracking which kids got what, so we didn’t learn nearly as much as we could have and should have learned over the last two or three years.

Laine Perfas: Stephanie, you mentioned that, at least in your school district, just staffing up was a really wise investment of resources. How do you do that when there’s so much teacher turnover and burnout right now? Heather, I think you actually mentioned that earlier in the conversation, that teachers are exhausted. It’s a really hard job. It was hard before, and now it’s even harder. I just want to create some space to talk about that a little bit because teachers are such a vital part of the solution and yet they’re struggling as well.

Conklin: It’s a great question. I have so many thoughts. I guess I would say I am on staff at University of Albany, teaching folks how to become teachers. I know in the past three years, pre-COVID, we had about 50 students in our teacher-ed program. And now I think I have 24 this semester. So we’re certainly seeing a huge hit.

I think what teachers are being asked to do is tremendously different than what I was asked to do during my teacher training 15 years ago. We’re asked to be counselors, social workers, teach math, teach writing, and teach students how to be students. I know that our program at University of Albany, we’re always seeking to change it, amend it, but a lot of the state requirements for teachers are not aligned. Two six-week student teaching opportunities I don’t feel is enough — that’s the state requirements right now — in order to really prepare someone for a lifelong career in education. We really should be looking at programs where student teachers are placed for an entire school year in a district and or in a placement and working with a mentor teacher on how to deal with this. OK, when you have a student in crisis, how do you deal with it? How do you deal with it the day after spring break when no student wants to do any work? Which can be very stressful when you have 30 kids in front of you and everyone still wants to be on spring break, yourself included. All these nuances of teaching really need to be taught and modeled for new teachers. I think the current system and the current programs that we’re offering may not necessarily yield themselves to creating teachers who have that resiliency, that ability to sort of push through this much more challenging time.

Hill: OK, so number one, just pay teachers more. If the job is 20 percent harder in any other profession, we’d be like, and you pay people more. Instead, what we see is many states saying, “Oh, we can’t find teachers at the wage that we’re willing to pay. Let’s let people into classrooms who have no training.” There is some weird way in which the public governance of teaching as a profession has stood in the way of actually paying teachers the money that is needed to do the job that they have.

The next thing would be to take a look at teachers’ overall working conditions. There is an enormous amount of stuff that we’re asking teachers to do on top of just teaching students. Looking at that level of workload and paring back what is not necessary would be step two for me, which is to say, how can we get teachers more time to prepare for and to teach students? End of story. Number three is schools need to be better places for teachers to work. Teachers leave schools that are not well-managed, and not all schools are well-managed right now for various reasons. Helping schools get over shortage of subs, helping principals establish common disciplinary policies across the school, establish common routines in classrooms, so as kids are moving around they’re very familiar with this is how we do things at the school; that can make a big difference to getting teachers to stay in the profession.

Laine Perfas: Why do we put all that pressure on teachers? There are so many needs that students have. I’m wondering if there’s space for other people who are not teachers to be part of this solution as well. And what that could look like, engaging an entire community on a broader level to help with some of these challenges.

Kane: We had an event here where the governor of Rhode Island was talking about what they’re doing; you know, very few mayors can teach Algebra I. But mayors can help with the attendance issue, with public information campaigns, with maybe lowering bus fares or handing out transportation cards to students or providing more transportation options. That is one area where public organizations outside of schools could really help.

But the other area is, so here in Boston, there’s an organization called Boston After School and Beyond that helps organize summer learning opportunities. Rather than having the school try to plan both the enrichment activities for summer learning and the academic content, what Boston is doing is saying, “OK, so we got a bunch of organizations here in the city that run enrichment opportunities during the summer: summer camps or museums or other organizations. And why don’t we have them organize the enrichment, but then have the Boston Public Schools provide teachers to teach on site?” So it’s splitting up that task and saying, “Hey, look, we don’t have to solve all of this. Why don’t we let the nonprofits who were already doing a great job recruiting kids and getting kids to show up for summer and just inserting some summer learning into that.”

Conklin: We are finding that summertime, where we have the 10 weeks of students not doing anything, does need to be filled. And the idea that someone else could take that on besides a school? Those opportunities really would benefit students. One of the things I wanted to agree with you wholeheartedly on is giving teachers more time. Tom mentioned algebra. I’ve been teaching algebra for 17 years. I have been rewriting everything the past three years. The time with my colleagues, the time to prepare for my students that are in front of me, is critical. And I know a lot of things we’re talking about relate to funding, but that is one very tangible thing: teachers having more time. And going along with that, I think one of my biggest stressors is dealing with families who have a really challenging time understanding why their students are behind, why their students aren’t being successful. And having support from administrators, which I do have at my school, who are willing to say, “Hey, we need to support your child. Here’s what we’re going to do.” And it’s not just on the teacher.

Hill: The solutions that you’re suggesting are the right set of solutions. I don’t know how to do a hard reset on teachers’ working conditions. The way that the bureaucracy has grown in American education is that teachers need this, and teachers need that. But that takes teachers’ time, and it takes time away from preparing to teach students, and from, in many cases, actually teaching students. One of the things that is the most robust in this literature on the production function for kids — meaning like what produces student achievement — is literally, like, time on task: Are kids in classrooms? This comes back to the absence issue. Are kids there? Are teachers there providing instruction?

Kane: One of the barriers is that a lot of parents misperceive how much students have lost. They see kids are back in school and they’re thinking, everything’s back to normal. If parents are misperceiving the amount of loss, it’s going to be hard for school districts to ask for the bigger things like major increases in funding for teachers or big increases in summer learning and honestly, that has been one of the biggest things, I think, hampering the recovery, is parents thinking things are fine now that kids are back in school.

Laine Perfas: How might parents get a better understanding of how bad things are in some of the school districts?

Kane: I wish more schools would just tell parents, before school’s out, when their child is below grade level in math or reading or any other subject so the parents actually have time to sign up for summer learning. Instead, there’s been a lack of honesty with parents on just where kids are. And part of that is on schools. I can understand, if you’re already overwhelmed, like, who wants to get parents riled up? But I do think that lack of parent awareness of the magnitude of the losses is meaning that parents are pushing back on things like extending the school year or signing their kid up for summer learning.

Conklin: I would agree with Tom. I think, too, in the past two to three years, many students have been given a literal pass in courses because of COVID. You know, during the 2020, 2021 years, many students were passed on, whether through social promotion or because of policies related to COVID. So I think families have become accustomed to, well, they’re struggling, but they’ll get through. But now that we’re three years post-pandemic, three academic years, many of those supports to pass students are going away so students are going to be expected to pass exams that do have graduation requirements.

Hill: Can I ask Stephanie, what you were saying about students feeling like they can get by past their classes without having to really put in full effort is really interesting because I feel like from what I have seen anecdotally it’s certainly the case. One of the things I like to recommend is homework, but I know that is a fraught issue, so I’m curious how you’re thinking about this and whether that is part of a solution.

Conklin: I think the issue is, is that if kids don’t know what they’re doing, they don’t know what they’re doing at home. So I know that, for many of the teachers, what we talk about is having an assignment that is reasonable to do at home and that is started in class. So I always, the last five minutes of class, “OK, let’s get a jump start. Let’s read the directions together. Let’s do a couple problems.” For my middle and high school kids, you know, we’re really suggesting no more than 10 to 15 minutes of homework. And that’s actually probably all the practice they need to get that specific skill down.

Laine Perfas: We’ve been talking a little bit about solutions that could happen at the local or community level, but what policies need to change to create a healthier education ecosystem long term?

Kane: Sam, that is a great question. I wish it was a much more lively debate right now going on in states, because as I said, the federal money is about to run out. For the last three years, we’ve just been watching districts spend down the federal money without thinking about, “OK, so what’s going to happen when the federal money runs out?” Here are a few just very concrete things that states could be doing. You know, number one, they could be providing extra resources for students who are behind, so targeted benefits either to kids or to districts. A second thing, and this is something that Texas has been doing, they said, “OK, we, the state, will pay half the cost for additional days of learning time that you provide.” A number of districts have extended the school year beyond 180 days in Texas, as a result of this. And a third area, states could set aside some money for funding pilot programs for lowering absenteeism rates and then evaluating those. So a state could say, here’s a pot of money if a district out there has an idea or a pilot program they would like to launch to try to help lower absenteeism rates. If the state were to fund those and then fund evaluations of them, we could be learning much faster than we are about how we’re going to lower the absenteeism problem.

Hill: One of the things that I was thinking, this was a few years ago, back at the beginning of the pandemic, is just to say, everything is on the table. There’s a lot that I think we can do to increase academic learning time without changing structures within the schools to that much of an extent. There’s actually already programs that address student absentee rates. What they look like is they look very relational. So it’s working with the parents, having somebody from the school, sometimes a guidance counselor, somebody whose job is it to go and try to coordinate and reduce chronic absenteeism on the part of students. They can be very successful when they are able to form relationships with parents and really engage parents in solving the problem.

Conklin: To recruit the best teachers we need to offer a higher pay, and I think that people would be willing to work more for a higher pay. I have a doctorate in education and I can’t tell you how many of my students say, “Why are you a teacher if you have a Ph.D.? You went to Harvard and you have a Ph.D. and you’re teaching here?” I think we need to change that perspective. We need to pay teachers well, we need to treat teachers well. So if we talk about policy, every school for every certain number of kids having a social worker, having a counselor so that those SEL (social emotional learning) needs, which we know have been huge concern for teachers, students, families, are met. I think those are some of the issues that really would attract more teachers.

Kane: We’ve been talking mostly about academic recovery and what it’s going to take. I think we need to take a step back and realize what drove this. The learning loss to some extent is a result of public health measures, that were taken on behalf of all of us. I know there are people who disagree with those public health decisions that were made, but they were on our behalf by duly elected or appointed officials. Basically, what we’re doing now is deciding who’s going to pay for that. Right now, in a lot of communities, we’ve said, OK, kids are going to pay for that. That we’re not going to do what’s necessary to help students catch up. Framed that way, I think most people would say, “Gosh, of course, we need to continue the recovery beyond September. We’ve got to figure out some way to make sure these losses are made up because these were losses that were caused by public health measures intended to benefit all of us. It’s on us to make sure kids are made whole.” That’s what this is all about.

Laine Perfas: Thank you for joining me and for talking about this really important issue.

Hill: Thanks, Sam, for having me.

Conklin: Thank you for having me.

Kane: Thanks, Sam.

Laine Perfas: Thanks for listening. For a transcript of this episode and to see all of our other episodes, visit harvard.edu/thinking. This episode was hosted and produced by me, Samantha Laine Perfas. It was edited by Ryan Mulcahy, Paul Makishima, and Simona Covel. Original music and sound design by Noel Flatt. Produced by Harvard University.

Recommended reading

• For students still feeling pandemic shock, clock is ticking by The Harvard Gazette
• Parents Don’t Understand How Far Behind Their Kids Are in School by The New York Times
• Turning Around Teacher Turnover by the Harvard Graduate School of Education
• Combatting Chronic Absenteeism with Family Engagement by The Harvard EdCast

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Student Podcast Challenge

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College student explores rare mental health condition in award-winning podcast

Elissa Nadworny

Janet W. Lee

Professor Emily Sendin of Miami Dade College (L) presents Michael Vargas Arango (R) with the winner certificate from the NPR Podcast Challenge. Eva Marie Uzcategui for NPR hide caption

Professor Emily Sendin of Miami Dade College (L) presents Michael Vargas Arango (R) with the winner certificate from the NPR Podcast Challenge.

It's rare to get a first-person perspective on living with a condition called schizoaffective disorder. But Michael Vargas Arango, who was diagnosed as a teenager, wanted the world to know that it's not something to be afraid of.

"I'm not dangerous. I'm not crazy. And I'm not delusional," he says in his podcast, The Monsters We Create . "I'm just one more guy, with a mental health condition, living with it."

His emotional and deeply personal entry was chosen by our judges, from among 10 finalists . As the grand prize winner of this year's NPR College Podcast Challenge , he'll receive a $5,000 scholarship.

The idea for his podcast came after Vargas Arango told his girlfriend, Elizabeth Pella, about his schizoaffective disorder.

"Of course I had to tell her this is happening to me: I hear voices. I feel presences," says the 22-year-old international student at Miami Dade College in Florida. "This is who I am. I can't lie. I cannot lie."

It was a big deal for him to tell her. He was living in a foreign city, speaking his second language, far from his family back in Colombia, and Pella would be the first person outside of his family he'd told.

Here are our 10 best college podcasts in America

The conversation went well, and Pella was understanding, curious, and loving. But she had one request: Don't tell my friends.

She says she was worried that they would judge him and even judge her. "'Like, why are you dating this guy?' I was scared," she says, "and I wanted to protect him, too."

"I'm gonna show you how it is."

Vargas Arango, 22, is a second-year student at Miami Dade College, studying business and psychology. Eva Marie Uzcategui for NPR hide caption

Vargas Arango, 22, is a second-year student at Miami Dade College, studying business and psychology.

Pella's request didn't sit well with Vargas Arango. "You don't wanna know?" he recalls thinking, "I'm gonna show you how it is."

Now, he didn't just want to tell his girlfriend and her friends. He wanted to show everyone what it was like living in his head.

Using his own voice, interviews and layers of sound design, he crafted the podcast that won NPR's competition.

Vargas Arango's podcast starts with an exchange between himself and the voice in his head: "Why would you tell them I exist? They won't understand."

He responds, "You're giving me a headache. Can you shut up for a second?"

Then, Vargas Arango addresses the listener: "This is how I've been living my whole life. But you're probably wondering: What is this guy talking about? Who is he even talking to? Well, let me explain."

He explores what it's like to live with schizoaffective disorder, a chronic mental health condition where a person experiences symptoms of schizophrenia, such as hallucinations or delusions, and mood disorders like depression. It's rare – Vargas Arango is among the 3 in 1,000 people who experience it.

"I hear voices but in another language that I just don't understand," he explains. "I sometimes hear my name being called multiple times."

Challenging misconceptions about schizoaffective disorder

Vargas Arango plays with sound effects and echoes in his podcast.

It's not always to illustrate his experience, he says. In some cases, it's a metaphor, where he uses distorted voice recordings as a "way to make fun of the prejudice that people have. Because they think that you're hearing these voices to try to go hurt someone," he says.

"That's not what I hear," he adds. "That's not how it works."

This openness is pretty radical for Vargas Arango. His family back in Colombia didn't really talk about mental health, and, as a kid, his schizoaffective disorder presented itself as "imaginary friends."

Vargas Arango shows his home recording setup in his Miami apartment. Eva Marie Uzcategui for NPR hide caption

Vargas Arango shows his home recording setup in his Miami apartment.

"You can probably imagine what the reaction of my Colombian religious mother was," he says in the podcast. "She thought I could see a ghost or something. But no, I can't see ghosts. Sadly."

The diagnosis came when he was a teenager, from visits to psychiatrists and psychologists. That was followed by dark times, which included depression, anxiety and suicidal thoughts as he struggled with his own preconceived notions around schizoaffective disorder and mental illness.

"I was one of those people that had this perspective of, 'these people are crazy, these people are dangerous, these people are delusional, you got to be away from them,'" he recalls.

Talking openly about his condition and his treatment – which includes medicine and therapy – and then winning the NPR contest has also helped his family, he says.

After NPR gave Vargas Arango the news, he calls his parents to tell them. Through tears, his mom, Olga Arango, tells him in Spanish that she's crying from joy, from happiness.

"She says she admires me," Vargas Arango translates.

His mom says hearing about his podcast and his success has changed her perception of mental illness: "I know that God gave me a really beautiful person, and everyday I tell him not to change."

Not changing, Michael says, is the biggest lesson he learned in telling his story. He says he's no longer scared to tell people who he really is.

"You need to be honest. You need to embrace who you are and what you're living with. Everyone's going through their own stuff."

Listen to Michael's podcast here .

If you or someone you know may be considering suicide, contact the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline by dialing 9-8-8, or the Crisis Text Line by texting HOME to 741741.

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Conversations with Dr. Naftali Kaminski: Behind the Scenes of a New Medical Podcast

Dr. naftali kaminski.

Naftali Kaminski, MD , Boehringer Ingelheim Pharmaceuticals, Inc. Professor of Medicine and chief of Pulmonary, Critical Care, and Sleep Medicine (Yale-PCCSM), recently partnered with the American Thoracic Society (ATS) to launch a new podcast.

In “From the Trenches,” part of the ATS’s Breathe Easy podcast series, Kaminski chats with pulmonary division chiefs across the United States about their journeys.

Can you tell us about the inspiration behind starting your podcast?

The idea sparked during the pandemic when division chiefs in pulmonary medicine were at the forefront of handling a new disease with no existing data. We organized weekly meetings to share updates and collaborate. This experience highlighted a gap in understanding the roles and journeys of division chiefs. The podcast, "From the Trenches" aims to fill this gap by discussing the paths to leadership and the personal stories behind the titles.

What makes your podcast unique?

Our format is structured yet personal. We start with an ice-breaker question about something unknown about guests, move into their journey to becoming a chief, and end each episode with a reflective question – what advice you would give to your younger self? This approach not only demystifies leadership roles but also adds a personal touch, revealing interesting facets like a chief who wanted to be a drummer or another who’s dealt with a severe fear of heights, as well as some career insights and advice.

Who is the target audience for your podcast?

Initially, we aimed at early-career professionals, but chiefs are also tuning in. The podcast is attracting a diverse range of listeners, especially among younger audiences who are more inclined to consume content through audio formats and social media platforms like Twitter.

What are your goals for each episode?

The primary goal is to demystify leadership in the medical field and show the non-linear paths to these roles. By sharing diverse stories of how chiefs reached their positions, we highlight that careers are never linear and straightforward, that even those who are among our most accomplished leaders overcame challenges, balance work and life, and depend on their families and partners as well as their peers to succeed. Overall, the aim is to encourage a sense of community and camaraderie among members of our disciplines as well as to demystify the role of a chief.

How do you feel about the impact of your podcast so far?

It's hard to say. Personally, I have a great time – the chiefs I interview are interesting, engaging, thoughtful, and simply great people – so I love it! Most feedback has been mainly through Twitter and personal interactions, suggesting a positive reception. As podcasts are timeless, the true impact might unfold over time as more people discover and listen to the episodes.

What are your plans for future episodes?

The format will stay similar, with slight improvements in the flow of conversation. We’re considering involving a third person in discussions – preferably someone early in their career or an intern – to add more perspectives. However, this is unclear – there are several episodes that are being edited now, so we may decide after they are aired.

Lastly, any closing thoughts?

I’m grateful for the opportunity to speak with the people who agreed to be guests on the podcasts – I enjoy the discussion and learn from them – to some extent, coming out of the pandemic, it is again a reminder of how much we miss each other’s voices. Finally, I have to say – it is impressive to see how diverse the chief community is now.

Not so long ago, very few chiefs were women, members of underrepresented minorities, LGBTQ+, or international medical graduates with an accent like me – but now the chiefs community is more diverse, which I believe is great for all, for our patients, for our trainees, for our faculty, and for our communities! I just hope that this continues.

The Section of Pulmonary, Critical Care and Sleep Medicine is one of the eleven sections within Yale School of Medicine’s Department of Internal Medicine. To learn more about Yale-PCCSM, visit PCCSM's website , or follow them on Facebook and Twitter .

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• Naftali Kaminski, MD Boehringer Ingelheim Pharmaceuticals, Inc. Professor of Medicine (Pulmonary); Section Chief, Pulmonary, Critical Care & Sleep Medicine

Related Links

• From the Trenches: Episode 6 – MeiLan Han, MD, MS
• From the Trenches: Episode 5 – Mark Gladwin, MD
• From the Trenches: Episode 4 - Jose Herazo-Maya, MD
• From the Trenches: Episode 3 - Lynn Schnapp, MD
• From the Trenches: Episode 2 - Terri Laguna, MD
• From the Trenches: Episode 1 - Steve Dudek, MD

How Travis Kelce Is Shaking Off Jana Kramer's Critical Comments

Travis kelce isn't bothered by jana kramer's comments about his relationship with taylor swift, with a source telling e news that he's never even met the country singer..

Travis Kelce  is saying sorry to this woman because he does not know her.

The  Kansas City Chiefs tight end  is not fazed by criticism leveled at him by  Jana Kramer after the  One Tree Hill  actress had some not so nice comments about Travis' relationship with girlfriend  Taylor Swift , saying that she feels he's a little too "corny, cheesy" and that "he's loving the attention."

"To me he's always drunk," she said on the May 5 episode of her podcast  Whine Down with Jana Kramer . "Every time I've ever seen a video, he's just always drunk."

And she alleged he's even changing Taylor, adding, "I see her drinking more now because of the company you keep."

But a source tells E! News that Travis has never met Jana and he isn't paying her comments any mind.

As for Jana, the 40-year-old was initially very on board with Trayvis, saying she was the "person that watched [Taylor]  run off the stage and hug him  in the very beginning a million times." However, she found that Travis' "aggression" after the  Super Bowl  "rubbed me the wrong way."

And Jana—who was married to NFL player  Mike Caussin  from 2015 to 2021—might know the reason why, explaining, "It's just something about him reminds me of my ex."

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While she's not exactly the couple's cheer caption, she did add she just wants "everyone to be happy."

And that happiness has been radiating off Taylor and Travis ever since they  first went public with their relationship in September .

In fact, Taylor seemingly touched on their relationship on her new album  The Tortured Poets Department , with tracks like " The Alchemy " and " So High School ."

"Truth, dare, spin bottles / You know how to ball, I know Aristotle," she sings on the latter, adding, "I feel like laughin' in the middle of practice."

For more of Taylor and Travis' love story, just say yes and keep reading.

July 2023: So, Make the Friendship Bracelets

Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce 's love story began in July 2023, when the singer's Eras Tour made a stop at Arrowhead Stadium in Kansas City, Mo.

As a huge Swiftie, the Kansas City Chiefs tight end caught the show with hopes of giving Taylor a friendship bracelet with his number on it . However, he failed to complete the pass due to her pre-show rituals.

"I was disappointed that she doesn't talk before or after her shows because she has to save her voice for the 44 songs that she sings," Travis shared on the July 26 episode of his  New Heights podcast. "So, I was a little butt-hurt I didn't get to hand her one of the bracelets I made for her."

Summer 2023: This Is Him Trying

After publicly recounting his fumble—a move Taylor would later describe as "metal as hell" —Travis decided to shoot his shot and invite the Grammy winner to watch the Chiefs play at Arrowhead Stadium.

"I threw it out there, I threw the ball in her court," he shared on The Pat McAfee Show . "I told her, you know, 'I've seen you rock the stage in Arrowhead, you might have to come see me rock the stage in Arrowhead and see which one's a little more lit.' So, we'll see what happens in the near future."

August 2023: Enchanted to Meet You

Travis was rocking a mustache—which he debuted in August during training camp—when he was first introduced to Taylor .

As he later noted of the era, "That 'stache and the 87 jersey was pretty iconic there for a little bit, and I had it when I met Taylor for the first time."

September 2023: Sparks Fly

By early September, a source close to the situation told E! News that Travis and Taylor were " texting and talking here and there ."

"It's been very low-key," the insider explained, "as he's been in season."

September 2023: Cheer Captain

Accepting Travis' invite, Taylor joined the athlete's mom Donna Kelce at Arrowhead Stadium to watch him and the Chiefs take on the Chicago Bears. After the game, Taylor and Travis were seen packing PDA at a local bar .

Though folklore had it that it was the couple's first in-person meeting, the "Karma" singer later clarified the two had spent a "significant amount of time" getting to know each other beforehand.

As Taylor noted, "We would never be psychotic enough to hard launch a first date." 

October 2023: Team Up

As an indication that the relationship was heating up, Taylor brought her squad —including friends Blake Lively , Ryan Reynolds , Sophie Turner , Hugh Jackman , Sabrina Carpenter and Antoni Porowski —to watch the Chiefs play against the New York Jets at MetLife Stadium in New Jersey.

October 2023: It's Nice to Have a Friend

Another sign that Travis could be The 1 ? Taylor started bonding with Brittany Mahomes —the wife of Travis' BFF and teammate Patrick Mahomes —in and outside of NFL games .

October 2023: Welcome to New York

The couple took their romance to TV, making a surprise appearance on the Oct. 14 episode of Saturday Night Live . Their Big Apple takeover also included the after-party for the NBC sketch show and a date night at the Waverly Inn .

November 2023: Karma Is Her Boyfriend

During a bye week, Travis traveled down to Argentina to catch the South American leg of Taylor's Eras Tour. Not only did the NFL star bond with Taylor's dad , Scott Swift , at the Nov. 11 show in Buenos Aires, but he also got a special shoutout from the stage.

" Karma is that guy on the Chiefs ," Taylor sang, "coming straight home to me."

After the show, the Midnights  artist was seen running up to Travis backstage and greeting him with a passionate kiss .

December 2024: Speak Now

Taylor addressed the lavender craze surrounding her appearances at Travis' games.

"I'm going to see him do what he loves, we're showing up for each other, other people are there and we don't care," she told Time . "The opposite of that is you have to go to an extreme amount of effort to make sure no one knows that you're seeing someone."

December 2023: You, Who Charmed Her Dad

The music superstar turned Travis' Dec. 17 game into a family affair, bringing her dad to cheer on her man .

January 2024: All the Midnights

Taylor and Travis spent their first New Year's Eve together, sharing a romantic kiss when the clock struck midnight on Jan. 1.

January 2024: Chosen Family

Continuing to bond with Travis' family, Taylor hung out with his brother Jason Kelce and sister-in-law Kylie Kelce at the Chiefs' game against the Buffalo Bills.

January 2024: Saved by the Perfect Kiss

Taylor joined Travis on the football field when the Chiefs won the AFC Championship , a victory that cemented the team's spot in the 2024 Super Bowl . The couple shared a celebratory kiss before exchanging the L-word .

"Tay, I'm gonna enjoy with the guys," he told her. "I love you—so much it's not funny."

February 2024: Super Bowl Champs

The pair locked lips on the field after Travis led the Kansas City Chiefs to victory on Feb. 11, 2024 in Las Vegas.

February 2024: TikTok Official

Taylor posted footage of Travis on social media for the first time Feb. 12, poking fun at how she took her parents clubbing with the athlete after the Super Bowl.

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114 episodes

The Revolution will be streamed LIVE! Comedians Ty Barnett and Ian Harris are "Critical AND Thinking" Two politically active, socially conscious and ethically responsible comedians who use humor and critical thinking skills to push the national conversation forward, promoting science, reason, justice and empathy. Progressive, passionate, funny, sometimes edgy, and always on point. With a wide range of guests an topics covering politics, comedy, science and maybe even a little MMA!

Critical AND Thinking with Ty Barnett and Ian Harris Comedy Pop-Up Podcast Network

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The biggest news story, Russia invades Ukraine. Hear the perspective of the Critical and Thinking crew and why right wing outrage makes no sense.

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Thinking Of Buying An Electric Car? Here Are Five Critical Things To Consider

Range is one of them and so is your charging situation, but there are a few more things to consider before buying an ev..

W hile they still account for a slim percentage of the new-vehicle market in the U.S., sales of electric cars, led by the top-selling Tesla Model Y , are rising steadily. And with several new models constantly coming out and additional off-lease electric cars headed to used-vehicle lots, 2024 could be the year you take the proverbial plunge and buy an electric car. But shopping for a battery-powered vehicle is a somewhat different process than it is with a conventional gas-fueled model. Here are five prime variables to consider when buying either a new or used electric car.:

Electric Car Specs

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• 2024 U.S. Electric Cars Compared By Price Per Mile Of EPA Range
• Compare Electric Cars: EV Range, Specs, Pricing & More
• Here's How Tesla Model Y Compares To Other Electric Crossovers/SUVs

Ensure That The Electric Car's Range Fits Your Needs

This is arguably an electric car shopper’s most important concern. Today’s electric cars cover a wide range in this regard, with driving capacities ranging from around 100 miles to more than 500 miles, with the sweet spot being the 250- to 300-mile range . Do you even need that much? 

It pays to pick a model with an operating range that exceeds your expected needs, and here’s why: Estimated ranges for electric cars are just that – estimated – and will vary based on several factors. For starters, you’ll drain the battery quicker while driving on the highway than around town. It takes more energy to propel an electric car at higher speeds.

Also, you’ll burn more kilowatts of power driving in extreme temperatures. Research conducted by AAA found that when the mercury dips to 20°F and the vehicle’s heater is in use, an average electric car’s range will be 41 percent shorter than when the mercury is at 70°F. When the thermometer hits 90°F, an electric car’s range drops by an average of 17 percent with the air conditioning running. And you’ll want to be prepared for the possibility that you may take on a new job that requires a longer commute at some point during your ownership period.

More EV 101 Info

• How Do You Maintain An Electric Car?
• Is DC Fast Charging Bad For Your Electric Car's Battery?

Consider The Prices And Any Available Incentives And Tax Credits

Next to an electric car’s operating range, sticker price is the next most important consideration. The least expensive electric cars for 2024 are priced around the $30,000 range, though some luxury-minded models fetch well over $100,000.

You should buy or lease an electric car well within your financial reach. Always research prices for any vehicles you’re considering, including options, via an Internet source like Kelley Blue Book (kbb.com) or NADAGuides.com to see what you can afford. Also, consider the manufacturer’s mandatory delivery charge, registration costs, and state and local taxes that will be tacked onto the vehicle’s transaction price.

Remember that some electric cars sold in the U.S. are eligible for a one-time $7,500 federal tax rebate that effectively cuts the price by that amount.  On the other hand, those who lease an electric car can usually get the full benefit of this incentive immediately, as the credit is usually wrapped into the deal, with the leasing company being the owner of record. Several states offer their own tax breaks or cash rebates to help promote electric car sales.

If you’re on a tight budget, consider choosing a used model. With the exception of just a few models, which hold onto their resale values well, electric cars are incredibly affordable in the pre-owned market. They tend to have below-average resale values because of the aforementioned federal tax rebate, still limited demand, and other factors. The trade-off is that most three-year-old or older electric cars tend to deliver fewer miles on a charge than many of the latest models.

More On Tax Credits

• U.S. Government Delays Even-Stricter EV Tax Credit Rules
• The Tesla Model 3 Performance Is Actually Cheaper Than The Long Range Because Tax Credits

Ensure That It's The Vehicle You Want

Aside from paying attention to an electric car’s price and range, you’ll want to choose a model you can live with as a daily driver. For example, a subcompact model’s interior may be too cramped for taller motorists. Some electric cars are inherently easy to enter and exit for some drivers than others. Back seat leg and headroom would be a concern if you regularly carry multiple passengers. If you have small children, you’ll want to determine how easy or difficult it might be to get them in and out of their car seats.

You’ll also want to make sure the cargo room in the trunk (if it’s a sedan) or behind the back seats (if it’s a hatchback or crossover sport-utility vehicle) can hold a sufficient number of grocery bags or cover your typical warehouse-store purchases. Also, check the cargo volume with the rear seatbacks folded flat, and note how easy or difficult it is to load and unload bulky items.

Basically, don't just go for any electric car because you want to drive electric. Pick an electric car that actually suits your wants and needs.

What Is Regenerative Braking

• What Is Regenerative Braking And Why Is It Useful For Electric Cars?

Make Sure You Understand And Enjoy The Electric Car Driving Experience

No matter what type of vehicle you’re looking for, new or used, gas or electric, you’ll want to take a thorough test drive before signing a bill of sale. It’s essential to ensure the vehicle is acceptably comfortable, with all accessories easily operated and in good working order. Importantly, those who have never driven an electric car will notice that there’s a somewhat different driving experience involved.

Since there’s no engine or exhaust, an electric car is whisper quiet, which can be off-putting to some motorists. An electric car immediately delivers 100 percent of its available power, making higher-powered models feel twitchy until you learn how to modulate the accelerator.

Electric cars typically use one-speed transmissions, so there’s no sensation of gearshifts. Also, the vehicle’s regenerative braking function, which helps recover energy that would otherwise be lost through decelerating and braking, can be quite pronounced depending on the model. What amounts to a high level of engine braking may feel unnatural. Some electric cars allow the driver to choose more or less regenerative braking as desired and even enable so-called “one pedal” driving that will bring the car to a complete stop without using the brake pedal.

More Charging Info

• What Are The Different Types of EV Chargers?
• Considering EV Ownership: To Level 2 Charge Or Not To Level 2 Charge? 

Consider Your Charging Options

Even if you have a standard power outlet in your garage, you’ll want to spend the money to have an electrician install a 240-volt line and perhaps a wall-mounted charger to take advantage of quicker “Level 2” charging times. While it can take 24 hours or more to fully charge a given battery-powered vehicle on house current (Level 1), most models can reach full capacity overnight via a Level 2 circuit. Check with your local utility company to see if they offer a discount for electricity during off-peak hours.

You’ll also want to note where public charging stations are located near where you live, work, and shop in case your car is running low on kilowatts while away from home. Look for “Level 3” DC Fast Charge installations that can bring an electric car’s battery pack up to 80 percent of its capacity in as little as 15 minutes, depending on the vehicle. However, public charging is neither as convenient nor economical as home charging.

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